Posted on 11/15/2012 4:33:43 PM PST by Colofornian
(To see Cal Grondahl’s cartoon that goes with this post, click here) A key difference between Latter-day Saints and many other Christian churches is that Mormons believe that there are various post-judgment kingdoms in the outskirts of heaven. There’s the Telestial Kingdom, for anyone from Hitler to that lawyer who’s cheating on his wife. There’s the Terrestrial Kingdom, for those decent folks who said “not now” when the missionaries came by the door. And then there’s the Celestial Kingdom, the jackpot prize.
But even the Celestial Kingdom comes in degrees. According to Joseph Smith, there are three degrees of glory in the Celestial Kingdom. So there’s the big leagues, triple-AAA ball, and AA ball in the Celestial Kingdom. The Terrestrial Kingdom is eternal single-A ball while Telestial Kingdom folks are damned to the rookie leagues forever.
And there’s a reason I say leagues, because Mormon pop theology also flirts with the idea of progression within the lesser kingdoms … and even from kingdom to kingdom.
I refer to one of the more obscure B.H. Roberts’ books, ”Outlines of Ecclesiastical History,” first written in 1893, but my edition is from 1927. The copy I have was used by an LDS missionary of that era. Roberts was one of the “progressive model” Mormon leaders of the first half of the 20th century. He favored a more expansive interpretation of Mormon doctrine. It was a doctrinal battle that Roberts and others would eventually lose, mostly snuffed out by Joseph Fielding Smith and the rise of ultra-conservative church leaders.
Anyway, Roberts, on page 416, parts 19 and 20 of The Restoration of the Gospel section, writes:
“The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered unto by those of the terrestrial — that is, those of the higher glory minister to those of a lesser glory. We can conceive of no reason for all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for the purpose of advancing our Father’s children along the lines of eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories after education and advancement within those spheres may at last emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake more or less of the nature of conjecture.
20. But if it be granted that such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the celestial glory — having before them the privilege also of eternal progress — have been moving onward, so that the relative distance between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser glories, may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at the commencement: and thus between them is an impassable gulf which time cannot destroy. Thus: those whose faith and works are such only as to entitle them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where those whose works in this life were such as to entitle them to entrance into the celestial kingdom – they may arrive where these were, but never where they are.”
Now here is where things get really interesting. I went to an online archive of Roberts’ 1893 book for the last quote. And “… where they are” is where section 20 ends. However, if I go to the 1927 edition of “Outlines of Ecclesiastical History,” which I am holding in my hands, Roberts continues with this fascinating “conjecture”:
“But if it be granted that the chief fact about Intelligences is that they have power to add fact to fact and thus build up knowledge, and through knowledge have wisdom, and thus make progress; and if to such intelligence there is granted eternal life — immortality — then it is useless to postulate any limitations for them; for in the passing of even a few thousands of millions of years, even if progress be very slow — there will come a time when these intelligences — men and women of even the telestial glory — may become very acceptable characters, and very important personages.”
This is radical doctrine, and exciting to read. It brings Mormonism back to its most progressive roots. But, today, web searches include only the 1893 edition. Roberts’ speculation from 1927 is not there.
And since 1927, the idea of eternal progression toward exaltation has became a pariah. I came of age as a young Mormon in the 1970s and I recall more than one teacher telling classes that the idea that you could progress from any of the lower kingdoms to exaltation was damnable to consider. In fact, I recall teachers citing Bruce R. McConkie, who described the idea as one of the “Seven Deadly Heresies.” (here)
What is included in Roberts’ 1927 version was part of Mormonism’s move to more speculation of doctrine, more discussion. It was not to last, though. I have no idea of if the propensity to seeing the 1893 version of “Outlines …” online is due to disapproval of the 1927 edition, but I would not be surprised.
Today, if you go to the LDS apologetics group FARMS’ internal Wiki page on eternal progression between the three kingdoms, you get an odd non-answer that translated, more or less reads, there is no official church position on this, but it probably isn’t true.
Going back to Roberts’ book, section 7, page 408, of The Restoration of the Gospel,” he writes:
“Naturally the question arises why was the gospel preached to the spirits in prison who had once been disobedient if there were no means by which it could be applied to them for their salvation. We can scarcely suppose that Messiah would preach the gospel to them if it could do them no good. He did not go there to mock their sufferings or to add something to the torture of their damnation by explaining the beauties of that salvation now forever beyond their reach! Such a supposition would at once be revolting to reason, insulting to the justice of God, and utterly repugnant to the dictates of mercy!”
That part of Roberts’ teachings remains Mormon doctrine. It’s a reminder that the LDS belief that God does not have a “line” that divides all in a “heaven” and “hell” is still evidence of the faith’s exciting, progressive roots.
So, despite the JFS and BRM efforts to make progression within kingdoms a “sin” to speculate about, we Mormons do still wonder about these issues, and even discuss them among ourselves from time to time. (To read a fascinating article on Roberts’ and others debates within the LDS leadership over doctrine, go here).
I guess Mormons should be on the safe side and start praying to Joseph Smith’s mother.
I’m presuming you skipped over that whole plank in the eye of the mote denouncer thing.
If that’s how you get your jollies there are worse things you could do with your time.
If you are offended by the posts that speak the truth about Mormonism (the stuff the missionaries and members lie about to outsiders) then you don’t know the first thing about Mormonism, or Christianity, or what even the Catholic church says about Mormonism.
Mormons pretend to be Christians, while spitting on Christ. They lie to ‘gentiles’ (all non Mormons even Jews) about some of their doctrines and beliefs in order to appear ‘Christian’. They lie about their history (even the Catholics don’t do that). In short, while Catholics are part of the Body of Christ - Mormons are not. It is Mormon doctrine that makes that so, nothing we say.
BTW, before you complain, you may want to do some research or actually give us a chance. We are warning others and protecting Christianity. More akin to the Swiss guard than to Muslims.
I’m presuming you skipped over that whole plank in the eye of the mote denouncer thing.
If that’s how you get your jollies there are worse things you could do with your time.
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What plank in my eye? My doctrine is sound, biblically.
And this isn’t fun, it is tiresome. I get tired of being lied about, lied to, and called names because I speak the truth.
Just like telling liberals the truth, it isn’t fun but it is VERY necessary and what God has called me to do. I know Mormonism better than most - I used to be one.
I am not on an anti-mormon crusade, I am however going to expose mormonISM for the anti-Christian and blasphemy teachings.....something God says we are to do.
psst, Why are you so interested in comparing everything to porn and Viagra? I find that just weird.
huh? What does that even mean?
I am offended by the obsession that you have with Mormonism and the mean spirited pettiness of many of the posts, along with bold face, large font capitals that spam the whole the page.
It makes the whole crusade look like a giant graffiti attack by a bunch red necks, who have nothing better to do than worry about others beliefs.
I have an idea then, get off the thread then your sensibilities wont be offended.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
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If you do not wish to see RF posts, do NOT use the “everything” option on the Free Republic browse option list. Instead, browse by “News/Activism.” When you log back in, the browse will reset to “everything” - so be sure to set it back to “News/Activism.”
I don’t log out.
Then just click on News/Activism, instead of Everything
So, I should log out and then where do I go to choose just news and activism. I would have done this years ago if I knew how to do it.
No, on the right hand side of the page there is a headline that says browse by forum, just click on the news activism not the everything.
Or the other page simply has forums, just click on news activism not all of the above.
Oh, blah blah blah. Stop telling me you THINK you KNOW what I believe. You do not know my heart and you cannot read my mind. You are deceived about my Church. I do not belong to a cult and I am not brainwashed.
Mormons are a peculiar people; that much is true.
Jesus died for me to save me from my sins. Amen. That’s all you need to know about me.
Seriously?
You send 50,000 missionaries a year into the calling us blasphemy and Chores of Babylon.
Who should be offended?
Further you tell everyone they are not worthy but using your construct not God’s.
In your religion one works regularly to prove themselves worthy.
In ours it isn’t possible to prove yourself worthy. God says all are not worthy and fallen short of the glory of God.
He never speaks again about how we can show or prove ourselves worthy. In fact, the reason you can’t is God’s gift to us can never be earned ....it’s a gift.
In your world The Pearl of Great Price, which has to be an outright creative expansion of The Three Great Parables and clear plagiarism.
Funny when the Bible clearly demands “not one jot or till” will be changed.
Then again, there would be no reason for Joseph Smith and LDS. You know all that.
So we have either a conflict in beliefs or a disagreement. Consider it both.
You really haven’t studied Protestant beliefs or Catholic either nearly asmmuch we have studied PoGP, D&C’s, BOM and every last Student Manual ....All of them.
There is no mystery in understanding your beliefs but really, you have a cultural problem of self perceived martyrs.
The 1860’s are over. You’ve established yourself as the only legitimate alternative to hell and damnation as all other religions are an abomination of idolators.
Funny you bring up Moslem as a good many of your Prophets and leaders have identified LDS as having more in common with them than any other religion.
Not something I’d want to say I have in common....ever.
You are aware of everything to which I’ve just eluded, I’m guessing???
Look, you’re on this thread expressing you’ve been insulted.
Why not read the so called spam, it’s part of the education and discussion and comment on it. Your dissent without oppositional argument isn’t useful to anyone and doesn’t advance a single idea....
the word is Purgatory from the word “purge.”
Where are you getting the misleading information about money paid for indulgences in the current church? It is not true. Why do you think this is true?
You are correct I can not read your mind nor know your heart however I know mormonISM.
I know mormonISM very well and what you are proclaiming is not what they teach.
My experiences with mormonISM goes back fifty years, I know it I lived it I will expose it.
Sandy does not know about mormonISM, why would you think that she would know anything about Catholicism.
I am offended by the obsession that you have with Mormonism ...who have nothing better to do than worry about others beliefs.
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My ‘obsession’ as you call it, is because I used to be Mormon. I know these people and I LOVE these people. I know what they believe, what the LDS church teaches, and how they are taught to lie to outsiders to make the LDS church look good.
I even was called to serve a 18 month LDS mission (knocking door to door).
My ‘obsession’ is really the love of Mormons and the love of Christ - who rescued me from sin, death and Hell and rescued me from Mormonism. I want them to know there is a much better way. If I hated them I would just let them be and not tell them the truth.
The other part of it is I don’t want people to fall for their lies like I did. As a Christian it is my duty to warn others of false teachers, false doctrine, false beliefs and wolves in sheeps clothing.
Do I have other things I would rather do? Sure. But for the true believer in Christ, there is nothing better to do than to bring people to Christ and when dealing with Mormons the first step in that is making them see that Mormonism isn’t ‘true’. Been there, done that and have seen God work wonders with LDS people I have witnessed to and ‘obsessed’ over.
I don’t worry about other Christian’s beliefs, because if we agree on the CORE doctrines (there is actually a list of core doctrines) I consider them my brothers and sisters in Christ. However, I do worry about the beliefs of those who are headed for Hell, because of my faith in Christ.
Frankly, I don’t care if I offend you. I don’t do this to be popular and I don’t care what anyone other than my Lord God thinks about me.
So go ahead, hate me, swear at me, make fun of me - I have thick skin and it isn’t anything I haven’t heard before. I am doing what God has called me to do, and what other so-called ‘christians’ refuse to do and that is share the gospel of grace with those who are lost - and Mormons are VERY VERY lost.
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