Replies

Because you’re confusing the White Horse Prophecy with what was actually said in all those addresses over the years.

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Oh I understand apparently better than you, Rip.

Typical Mormon ploy, if you don’t agree you don’t understand the ‘higher’ doctrines of Mormonism. Wrong, we understand completely, and I remember discussing it at BYU and in my wards. The masses believe in the prophecy, but downplay it publicly just like they downplay the belief that the US will become a Mormon theocracy during the Millennium to outsiders.

I will give Rip this one thing. I believe Smith gave the prophecy about his own 1844 run for POTUS that originally it was a short term prophecy, and when that wasn’t fulfilled, rather than let the masses at the time believe that Smith gave a false prophecy the leadership began to speak of it as a future event. That doesn’t change that for the last 140+ years it has been taught and believed by Latter day saints and most LDS I know supported Mitt because they thought he was the fulfillment of it.

For the lurkers who want to decide for themselves and actually research it, here are some great, well documented historical pieces and quotes about the WHP....

These are from Mormon friendly pages (although the editor was threatened with excommunication for not supporting Mitt Romney)...

http://www.mormonthink.com/glossary/whitehorseprophecy.htm

http://www.mormonthink.com/mittromney.htm

http://mormonthink.com/politics.htm

http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/whitehorse.htm

This is from a ministry who counters Mormonism, but is still extremely accurate and well sourced. Most professional historians familiar with Mormonism agree that this is a reliable source.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/whitehorseprophecy.htm

Because you’re confusing the White Horse Prophecy with what was actually said in all those addresses over the years. To know the difference is the key.

Well, the Q here is: Are you engaging in historical parsing that the listeners at these General Conferences were not engaging in?

Did they think that these discussions were extensions of Smith's 'White Horse' prophecy, or, as you now claim, something altogether different?

Do you somehow know more, Rip, than then-BYU president Dr. Ernest Wilkinson?

“In my commencement address I gave the language and sources of the prophetic utterance made by the Prophet Joseph that the Constitution of the United States would hang by a single thread, but be saved by the elders of Israel. I hope you will read those sources so you will be well-informed as to this prophecy and be prepared to do your part in its fulfillment.” - Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU Speeches, April 21, 1966, p. 7

What about Ezra Taft Benson's numerous references including one as recenlty published by the Lds church in 1988:

“Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time ‘this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’... [Then] the Elders of Israel [i.e., LDS leaders], widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.” - Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 1988, p. 619

Brigham Young clearly repeatedly taught clear elements of this "prophecy" as well:

“Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, ‘The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’ It will be so.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 15, July 4, 1854

“[W]hen the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the ‘Mormon’ Elders to save it from utter destruction.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 182, February 18, 1855

“How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 12, p. 204

“Our government, the best government in the world, is crumbling to pieces. Those who have it in their hands are the ones who are destroying it. How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 12, p. 204, April 8, 1868

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Rip, ALL: What, then is a way to "test" Rip's claim -- that the White Horse prophecy is somehow distinct from the string of similar references during Lds general conferences?

Well, let's start with the prophecy itself, found in a diary entry citing Smith himself: "You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed," the diary entry quotes Smith as saying. "It will hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber." Not only will the Mormons save the Constitution, under the prediction, but the prophecy goes further, insinuating that Mormons will control the government. "Power will be given to the White Horse to rebuke the nations afar off, and you obey it, for the laws go forth from Zion," the prophecy says.

So, then, let's break it down? What are the "key" elements of the prophecy:
#1 The U.S. Constitution to be "almost destroyed."
#2 "It [the Constitution] will hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber."
#3 The White Horse receives power to rebuke the nations
#4 The Law goes forth from "Zion" -- which Lds said is the Mormon church

BYU Studies (The Historians Corner) have also done us a "favor" in finding a similar Joseph Smith "prophecy" reference...cited mispellings & all:

“We shall build the Zion of the Lord in peace untill the servants of that Lord shall begin to lay the foundation of a great and high watch Tower and then shall they begin to say within themselves, what need hath my Lord of this tower seeing this is a time of peace &c. Then the Enemy shall come as a thief in the night and scatter the servants abroad. When the seed of these 12 Olive trees are scattered abroad they will wake up the Nations of the whole Earth. Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff up[on] which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction.” (The Historians Corner, BYU Studies, Vol. 19, No. 3, p. 391-392)

The key overlap parts there is that
#1 The constitution is on the "brink of ruin" and the "verge of destruction"
#2 [No reference this time to "hang" or "fiber"]
#3 The nations are indeed involved again -- to be awakened...
#4 Instead of a "White Horse" reference or "Zion" reference, "this people" [meaning Mormons] "will be the Staff up[on] which the Nation shall lean..."

In case any doubt that later Lds "prophets" reinforced certain interpretations, here's what to-be Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith said at a General Conference in 1950:
The statement has been made that the Prophet said the time would come when this Constitution would hang as by a thread, and this is true. There has been some confusion, however, as to just what he said following this. I think that Elder Orson Hyde has given us A CORRECT INTERPRETATION WHEREIN HE SAYS that the Prophet said the Constitution would be in danger. Said Orson Hyde: I believe he said something like this — that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he: ‘If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church.’ I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it. (Journal of Discourses, 6:152.) Now I tell you it is time the people of the United States were waking up with the understanding that if they don’t save the Constitution from the dangers that threaten it, we will have a change of government.” - Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, April 1950, p. 159

So...of the General Conference references, how many of these elements are contain references to
...the U.S. Constitution,
...hanging by a fiber,
or "‘this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction…'" (Lds "prophet" Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1961, p. 70)
or "He also indicated the important part that this people should yet play in standing for the principles embodied in these sacred documents—the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.” (Benson, Conference Report, April 1948, p. 85)

Because you’re confusing the White Horse Prophecy with what was actually said in all those addresses over the years.

Yup!

Them darned ANTIs are confounded all right!!

--MormonDude(I'm almost over the fact that Mitt lost...)

The

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS

OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 71

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, December 1, 1831. HC 1: 238–239. The Prophet had continued to translate the Bible with Sidney Rigdon as his scribe until this revelation was received, at which time it was temporarily laid aside so as to enable them to fulfill the instruction given herein. The brethren were to go forth to preach in order to allay the unfriendly feelings that had developed against the Church as a result of the publication of some newspaper articles by Ezra Booth, who had apostatized.

1–4, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are sent forth to proclaim the gospel; 5–11, Enemies of the saints shall be confounded.

1 Behold, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, that the time has verily come that it is necessary and expedient in me that you should open your mouths in proclaiming my gospel, the things of the kingdom, expounding the mysteries thereof out of the scriptures, according to that portion of Spirit and power which shall be given unto you, even as I will.

2 Verily I say unto you, proclaim unto the world in the regions round about, and in the church also, for the space of a season, even until it shall be made known unto you.

3 Verily this is a mission for a season, which I give unto you.

4 Wherefore, labor ye in my vineyard. Call upon the inhabitants of the earth, and bear record, and prepare the way for the commandments and revelations which are to come.

5 Now, behold this is wisdom; whoso readeth, let him understand and receive also;

6 For unto him that receiveth it shall be given more abundantly, even power.

7 Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest.

8 Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord.

9 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper;

10 And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time.

11 Wherefore, keep my commandments; they are true and faithful. Even so. Amen.