Posted on 11/02/2012 4:50:22 AM PDT by NYer
I have blogged before on Purgatory. For example here: Purgatory – Biblical and Reasonable. I have also provided a PDF document on the Biblical roots of the teaching here: PDF Document on Purgatory .
On this Feast of All Souls I want to reflect on Purgatory as the necessary result of a promise. Many people think of purgatory primarily in terms of punishment, but it is also important to think of it in terms of promise, purity and perfection. Some of our deceased brethren are having the promises to them perfected in purgatory. In the month of November we are especially committed to praying for them and know by faith that our prayers are of benefit to them.
What is the Promise which points to Purgatory? Simply stated, Jesus Made the promise in Matt 5:48: You, Therefore, must be perfect as you Heavenly Father is perfect. Now in this promise is an astonishing declaration of our dignity. We are to share in the very nature and perfection of God. This is our dignity: that we are called to reflect and possess the very glory and perfection of God.
St. Catherine of Siena was gifted by the Lord to see a heavenly soul in the state of grace and her account of it is related in her Dialogue. It is here summarized In the Sunday School Teacher’s Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism:
The Soul in the State of Grace- Catherine of Siena was permitted by God to see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace. It was so beautiful that she could not look on it; the brightness of that soul dazzled her. Blessed Raymond, her confessor, asked her to describe to him, as far as she was able, the beauty of the soul she had seen. St. Catherine thought of the sweet light of that morning, and of the beautiful colors of the rainbow, but that soul was far more beautiful. She remembered the dazzling beams of the noonday sun, but the light which beamed from that soul was far brighter. She thought of the pure whiteness of the lily and of the fresh snow, but that is only an earthly whiteness. The soul she had seen was bright with the whiteness of Heaven, such as there is not to be found on earth. ” My father,” she answered. “I cannot find anything in this world that can give you the smallest idea of what I have seen. Oh, if you could but see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace, you would sacrifice your life a thousand times for its salvation. I asked the angel who was with me what had made that soul so beautiful, and he answered me, “It is the image and likeness of God in that soul, and the Divine Grace which made it so beautiful.” [1].
Yes, this is our dignity and final destiny if we are faithful to God.
So, I ask you, “Are you there yet?” God has made you a promise. But what if it is not yet fulfilled and you were to die today without the divine perfection you are promised yet completed? I can only say for myself that, if I were to die today, as far as I know I am not aware of mortal sin. But I am also aware of not being perfect. I am not even close to being humanly perfect, let alone having the perfection of the heavenly Father!
But Jesus made me a promise: You must be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. And the last time I checked, Jesus is a promise keeper!. St. Paul says, May God who has begun a good work in you bring it to completion. (Phil 1:6). Hence, If I were to die today, Jesus would need to complete a work that he has begun in me. By God’s grace, I have come a mighty long way. But I have a long way to go. God is very holy and his perfection is beyond imagining.
Yes, there are many things in us that need purging. Sins, and attachments to sin. Worldly clingings, and those rough edges to our personality. Likewise most of us carry with us hurts, regrets, sorrows and disappointments. We cannot take any of this to heaven with us. It wouldn’t be heaven. So the Lord, who is faithful to his promise, will purge all of this from us. The Book of Revelation speaks of Jesus ministering to the dead in that he will wipe every tear from their eyes (Rev 21:4). 1 Corithians 3:13-15 speaks of us as passing through fire in order that our works be tested and that what is good may be purified and what is worldly may be burned away. Job said, But he knows the way that I take; and when he has tested me, I will come forth as pure gold (Job 23:10).
Purgatory has to be – Yes, gold, pure gold, refined, perfect and pure gold. Purgatory has to be if God’s promises are to hold.
Catholic Theology has always taken God seriously on his promise that we would actually be perfect as the Father is perfect. The righteousness is Jesus’ righteousness, but it actually transforms us and changes us completely in the way that St. Catherine describes above. It is a real righteousness, not merely imputed, not merely declared of us by inference. It is not an alien justice, but a personal justice, by the grace of God.
Esse quam videri – Purgatory makes sense because perfection promised us is real: Esse quam videri (To be rather than to seem). We must actually be purged of the last vestiges of imperfection, worldliness, sin and sorrows. And, having been made perfect by the grace of God, we are able to enter heaven of which Scripture says, Nothing impure will ever enter it (Rev 21:27). And again, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the souls of the just made perfect (Heb 12:22-23).
How could it be anything less? – Indeed, the souls of the just made perfect. How could it be anything less if Jesus died to accomplish it for us? Purgatory makes sense based on the promise of Jesus and the power of his blood to accomplished complete and total perfection for us. This is our dignity, this is our destiny. Purgatory is about promises not mere punishments. There’s an old Gospel hymn that says, “O Lord I’m running, trying to make a hundred. Ninety-nine and half won’t do!”
That’s right, 99 1/2 won’t do. Nothing less than 100 is possible since we have the promise of Jesus and the wonder working power of the precious blood of the Lamb. For most, if not all of us, purgatory has to be.
Have you ever heard of these three categories? Catholics consider them all the time.
Church Triumphant — the Saints in Heaven
Church Suffering — the Souls in Purgatory being purged so that they can be pure when they enter Heaven
Church Militant — that’s us — alive here on earth
no it does not deny anything, it simply states he died once for all....the sin has been forgiven, the eternal damnation has been paid for, however, the soul of the individual still is marred by the stain of sin, despite being forgiven..thus the need for cleansing and purification after death before one can be in the presence of the Lord.
...and thus the need for the protestants to come up with lame reasons to get rid of this book, as luther did....it clearly points to praying for the souls of the dead.
I have a few questions.
Can you do your purgatory here on earth? Could dealing with personal sufferings be that of illness, job loss, grief, etc, be a form of purgatory?
It sure feels like it.
While it is not necessary that a doctrine to directly rest upon explicit statements, yet as with the Trinity, it should be soundly derived from clear texts, and for which the doctrine of purgatory fails, but which supports the doctrine that all true believers go to be with the Lord forever upon departing from this life, as will be shown.
The argument here for purgatory is based upon the premise that Jesus commanded souls to be as perfect as God, quoting Mt 5:48 which states, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect, " (Matthew 5:45) ,” which is in context refers to treating your enemy benevolently. However, this does not teach that the achievement of absolute moral perfection in this life is a perquisite for salvation, and which would require redefining salvation, and is tantamount to placing one under the Law. (Gal. 3:10)
For while salvific faith is one which characteristically effects the “obedience of faith” toward its Object (which faith in any moral authority will do, and which is an overcoming kind of faith, (Rv. 2,3), and grows towards the maturity which is called perfection, (Col. 1:28; 4:12; Ja. 1:4; 3:2; 1Jn. 4:17) and which faith has “great recompense of reward,” (Heb. 10:35), yet Scripture states that believers (being of true faith) are presently saved (Titus 3:5), and positionally perfect (Heb. 10:14) and seated in Heaven. (Eph. 2:6)
Those who lack characteristic practical holiness in the obedience of faith, which (like David) includes repentance when convicted of sin, (1Jn. 1:7-9) but who assent to a different gospel (such as based upon morally earning it: Gal. 5:1-4) or who deny the faith (1Tim. 5:8) by knowingly continuing impenitently in sin, departing from the living God, (Heb. 3:6,12,14; 10:25-39) evidence they have rejected true faith (or never had it) and will be lost if they die in that state, and not go to purgatory.
And in contrast to the Scripture texts that are enlisted in support of the Roman tradition of purgatory which typically either refer to punishment of the lost or chastisement in this life or of loss of rewards when the Lord returns, wherever the NT actually refers to the postmortem existence of believers (which are all called “saints), it places them with the Lord.
The apostle Paul, while he told the Philippians that was he not “already perfect,” (Phil. 3:12) was yet torn by two desires, “to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better ,or to abide in the flesh to minister to the saints. (Phil. 1:23,24)
Likewise he stated to the Corinthians, "We [plural] are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)
In addition, the Thessalonians, which were still undergoing growth in grace toward perfection, were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:17)
And while the Corinthian believers were certainly not fully mature, yet the apostle taught that at the Lord's return then that is when they would be like the Lord, (1Cor. 15:49-57) at which appearance is when believers will fully be made perfect. (1Jn. 3:2)
To which is added the contrite confessing criminal on the cross who went to be with the Lord upon his physical death, (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as did Stephen. (Acts 7:59)
And we may be certain that the contrite confessing criminal had not yet attained moral perfection, which is one reason given for purgatory, the other being the need to atone for sins which the believer was not sufficiently chastised for in this life in compensating for them, and thus Rome teaches that such must atone for “in the life beyond through fire and torments or purifying' punishments.” (INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA; cp. 1. 1967)
However, what Scripture only reveals growth in grace and overcoming as being realized in this world, with its temptations and trials, (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) where alternatives to submitting to God can be made (suffering itself does not make one mature) and thus it was here that the Lord Himself was made “perfect,” (Heb. 2:10) as in being “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb. 4:15)
Moreover, while Christians will be judged for the things they did as a believers, (Rm. 14:10-12; 2Cor. 5:10) as in how they built the church, this occurs after the Lord's return, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:21-23; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards and the Lord's disapproval. (1Cor. 13:8ff) And which is contrary to purgatory, which has souls suffering in ongoing torments upon death in order to atone for sins and become perfect.
See here as regards 1 Cor. 3.
Note however that the “official” Roman doctrine of purgatory is ambiguous enough that it is open to much interpretation, so that it even may be taught, albeit inconsistently, that the suffering is for a moment, or is hardly even suffering.
Finally, the reality is that the doctrine of purgatory does not rest upon or require Scriptural substantiation, only that it does not contradict Scripture according to Rome's interpretation, and instead it is a tradition which rests upon Rome infallible declaration of herself as being infallible, while the Eastern Orthodox reject the purgatory of Rome (among other things) based upon their interpretation of Tradition and Scripture.
But for those who are prone to attempt to justify purgatory by Scripture, though that is not their supreme authority, i have engaged in extensive exchange on this, as here, and which little should need to be added.
Not needing explicit support from Scripture is one thing, asserting that purgatory is derived from it based on the premise of required perfection and ambiguous texts, is another (see .
But as your real basis is the authority of Rome, as a RC must hold that the Roman church is the final authority on Truth, rather than Scripture (as man's reasoning is fallible), would tell me upon what your basis is for your assurance that Rome is the one true church rests.
I have not seen you before in the usually debates here, but you should know that Luther was not alone in his rejection of the apocrpha, (read http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Ancients_on_Scripture.html#2).
As for using 2Mac. 12:40-45 to support purgatory, this is problematic as those who had offerings made for them were slain due to idolatry, a mortal sin, thus requiring RCAs to ex deny this was why they died, or postulating they may have repented at the last.
Moreover, the New Catholic Answer Bible, as well as my NAB on 12:42-46 states, “The statement is made here, however, only for the purpose of proving that Judas believed in the resurrection of the just (2 Mc 7,9. 14. 23. 36)....His belief was similar to, but not quite the same, as the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.”
“Not quite the same” is the only “doctrine” that this extra book can support is that of praying to the physically dead (and not to them), not for them to get out of purgatorial suffering and attain moral perfection.
Meanwhile, as shown, the clearest teaching of Scripture is that believers go to be with the Lord upon their demise here, or at the Lord’s return, which ever comes first.
See posts 26, 28.
Hebrews 9:27 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment...
Thank you for an excellent post.
Not true. We are in righteous standing before God.
Jesus NEVER mentions a place of further purification for sins.
Since Catholics hang so much on the direct words of Jesus, perhaps you could tell us where He refers to such an important part of the salvation process.
Why do people believe “Scripture Alone" when the Bible clearly says, the church is the bulwark of the Faith, not Scripture?
Why do people believe “by faith alone” when the Bible clearly says, “not by faith alone”?If that sort of trashing of His Word isn't enough, Purgatory is in Scripture but Luther threw out that portion along with others. So, there is only "Subset Alone" anyway, not really Scripture Alone as those who espouse it portray it since they don't even include all of the Scripture in their Bible.
Where in the subset of Scripture such folks do accept does it say Luther has the authority to throw out portions of Scripture?
Clearly, "Scripture Alone" is exactly the same sort of propaganda distortion as "Pro-Choice", a phrase fashioned to aid in a deliberate deception. It's a lie while based on only a subset of Scripture, and even if applied to the entirety of Scripture would be lie because the proponents contradict direct statements within Scripture whenever they please. They simply imitate Eve and Luther by changing His Word to suit themselves and get on with whatever they want to do. Weather that's eating forbidden fruit, throwing out portions of the Bible, or murdering their own children with contraceptives, they find a way to have Scripture agree with what they want to do.
"Scripture Alone" is the marketing trade name for the worship of "Self Alone", nothing more.
Half blind folks who stagger as they walk due to the immense weight of the huge beam in their own eye, but who claim that Purgatory is a mote in the eye of others, are just pitiful. Such folks are staggering around in their filthy rags claiming that they need only rely on their Self Alone are relying on them Self, not on Jesus Christ for their salvation.
“Soul sleep” is not what Scripture teaches (see #26). but the believers go to be with the Lord, while Paul’s mention of baptism for the dead* (vicarious baptism, which is attested to being practiced by such as the Marcionites in post apostolic times), was likely only in the interest of attesting to belief in the resurrection.
Paul also quoted a pagan philosopher in support of the truth that there is one God, (Acts 17:28) though this does not sanction all that such a pagan may do in worshiping such. And the fact is that the devils attest to the reality that there is one God, for they tremble at the realization of that, (Ja. 2:19) yet demons are wrong. Thus vicarious baptism attests to the resurrection, though the practice does not have Scriptural support.
Yet the Mormonic practice of baptism for the dead is the type of aberration most often seen among those who exalt another authority above Scripture, thus their teachings need not rest upon the weight of Scriptural warrant.
And and the Roman church comes close to supporting vicarious baptism with its infant baptism by proxy faith, but there is no example of anyone being saved or baptized who could fulfil the stated requirements for baptism, that of repentance and faith. (Acts 2:38; 8:36,27) Thus support must be derived upon the unprovable premise that household baptisms included infants, though even there faith is indicated where by any further description is given.
*1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Being Earth bound is one part of the purgatorial experience. Some souls go through that, but there are other ways of being purified while discarnate. Some Earth bound spirits are here voluntarilly, doing voluntary service work. Some are living out the agony of physical cravings and addictions with no physical body to satisfy their cravings.
My wife and I are going through what I believe is a purgatorial experience while still incarnate. The purification process sometimes begins before physical death.
Please see post 25, thank-you.
It astounds me that people fall for that purgatory tripe. If Jesus perfected us by His suffering and death and that was complete how could anyone deny Christ and state we have to yet be perfected?
“My wife and I are going through what I believe is a purgatorial experience while still incarnate. The purification process sometimes begins before physical death.”
That’s how karma works.... it’s a real pisser.
“how could anyone deny Christ and state we have to yet be perfected?”
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble, when you’re perfect in every way....” My brother’s theme song!
Seriously, I wish those who think they are perfect stop bothering those of us who are! sarc!
“how could anyone deny Christ and state we have to yet be perfected?”
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble, when you’re perfect in every way....” My brother’s theme song!
Seriously, I wish those who think they are perfect stop bothering those of us who are! sarc!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.