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To: PeevedPatriot
Can you cite a couple scriptures that the early fathers used to disprove oral tradition?

Been there, done that. Asked and answered.

What of this "secret" info, though? How to justify it? My, what a pickle.

Rome's Gnosticism. it's So because We Say It's So.

91 posted on 10/27/2012 6:05:40 PM PDT by BlueDragon (going to change my name to "Nobody" then run for elective office)
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To: BlueDragon
Asked and answered.

Nope. But I won't pressure you further to find verses that aren't there.

What of this "secret" info, though?

Jesus promised his Holy Spirit to guide his church. I take him at his word. You are under no obligation to do so. Peace be with you.

95 posted on 10/27/2012 6:39:15 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot ("A wise man's heart inclines him toward the right, but a fool's heart toward the left."--Eccl 10:2)
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To: BlueDragon
'What were those Old Testament references again? Oh that's right...you claimed there were such, but never brought them out."

They're in the subset of Scripture those who those who worship their own, Most High and Holy Self have thrown in the trashcan because they mention not only Purgatory but several other things Self Worshipers don't like to admit were in the Scriptures Christ and the Apostles taught from and quoted. Knowing that the Self Alone worshipers avoid anything they don’t have a twisted interpretation for handy, yes, I did leave out the references. Anyone who actually cares, of course, will have no problem at all finding what those references are.

Moving along, the Solas actually do stand alone except for the required Self Worship desire between the ears of the individuals who accept them. When someone decides that whatever spirit happens to be hanging off a nearby tree on any given day is all the help they need in interpreting Scripture, they're elevating themselves above the Church Jesus Christ Himself established and promised to protect from error, they’re saying the prefer to follow Eve rather than Christ, and they’re elevating themselves above the Word of God itself. For the moment I won’t bother with the fact that such folks are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. They are, but anyone who doesn’t even accept the entire Old Testament Christ and the Apostles taught from and quoted won’t understand that they are in fact blaspheming the Holy Spirit every time they elevate themselves above the Word of God. One thing at a time, as they say.

As for J.N.D. Kelly, he also argues that the Trinity isn’t based on Scripture but is an invention of the Catholic Church, so, anyone who is a Christian pretty much dismisses him right off the bat. He also mutilates a great deal of what the Early Church Fathers had to so and claims that anything they didn’t discuss in detail is an invention of the Catholic Church. That, too, is absurd on the face of it since everything the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church Jesus Christ Himself established is based on Scripture and the Traditions handed down from the Christ and the Apostles. Someone might think they see how the Catholic Church misinterprets some Scripture, but no way can they argue that anything the Church teaches isn’t based on Scripture. Well, no way they can argue that unless they first place themselves well above the Holy Spirit who inspired all Scripture.

Of course, since Kelly is a major advocate of holding one’s Self in greater esteem than the Word of God, it's no wonder that he'd have plenty of absurd stuff to say. I don't recall them right at the moment, but I’ve read about several other absurdities Kelly includes among his revisionist interpretations of what the Early Church Fathers believed. It’s safe to say his other works are equally as erroneous given his assertion that the Trinity isn’t based on Scripture. Even any non-Catholics unfortunate enough to pick up one of Kelly’s books sheik in horror and drop it as they flee such bald faced lies. It’s a funny choice of “experts” for anyone other than the anti-Christian, anti-Catholic, who chuckles over the cartoons of He Who Cannot Be Mentioned with their breakfast bowl of YOPIOS.

Maybe the Russelite crowd enjoys him, but at the moment I don’t recall the particular heresies Kelly wallows in well enough to say whether he’s someone the Watchtower bumblers would rely on or not. I do know that for the Self Alone crowd who assert that while His Word may be inspired, it doesn’t hold a candle to their personal authority, Kelly makes a lot of sense. His Self Worship advocacy fits right in with the Self Alone pretense of being Christian while in reality worshiping the Most High and Holy Self. That pretense of being Christian is exactly what makes the Self Alone heresy so popular. Especially since the, “may the Self be with you”, approach makes it so easy to ignore little details in Scripture like that bit about surrendering to Christ, taking up your cross, and following Him.

Unfortunately for such Self Alone folks, no matter how anyone tries to hide the facts, both Scripture Alone and Faith Alone are indeed heresies as is the marketing scam of, "Once Saved Always Saved". Catholic teaching that we must follow Christ and remain in a State of Grace just happens to be exactly what Jesus Christ Himself clearly teaches in the New Testament. It’s also what the Apostles taught and along with the rest of what the Catholic Church teaches is Christianity as Christ established it. Anything that disagrees with Christianity is heresy, it’s that simple. And heresy is a heresy and a marketing scam is a marketing scam, no matter how many of the Self Alone who worship their own, Most High and Holy Self, say otherwise.

97 posted on 10/27/2012 8:05:33 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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