Posted on 10/03/2012 10:14:57 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
The new documentary Hellbound? has reignited discussion about the perennial topic of hell as well as revealed some very bizarre perspectives.
Kevin Miller, the film’s director, who identifies as a Christian, stated in an interview that, regarding the traditional view of hell as a place of fiery torment, “I don’t see anything in the Bible that would lead me to believe that such a place exists.” Instead, according to Miller, when Jesus talked about hell, he was talking about the here and now.
Really? Jesus didn’t warn about a place of judgment to come? And Director Miller gets his denial of hell from the Bible? Perhaps he is reading into the Scriptures what he would like them to say? Warnings like this from Jesus, spoken with rhetorical urgency, are hard to dismiss: “If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.” (Matthew 5:29)
Frank Schaeffer, son of the late and revered evangelical leader, philosopher Francis Schaeffer, appeared in the movie and is more aggressive in his dismissal of hell. He writes in his column in the Huffington Post, “People ‘defending’ God have completely screwed up America and our politics. And their version of ‘God’ f----d up the first half of my life too.”
He claims that, “Hell is irrelevant because of course there isn’t one. The movie is important though because it exposes a real question: how can we survive the God-nuts who take this stuff seriously? Hellbound? is our chance to get to know the enemies of what’s left of our crumbling ‘civilization.’”
So, those who believe in a place of future judgment are “the enemies of what’s left of our crumbling ‘civilization,’” by which he explicitly means America.
Schaeffer continues, “Talking about hell in and of itself is a waste of time because if there is a ‘God’ no one knows anything about him/her or it and they never will, let alone about what he/she or it will ‘do’ about the ‘lost.’ But there are people, lots of them, who think hell is real because it fits their kill-your-neighbor-if-he-looks-at-you-funny vision of ‘life.’”
Well, I just learned something new: If I believe that God will bring about justice in the world to come and settle wrongs at the time of resurrection, I believe this because it fits my “kill-my-neighbor-if-he-looks-at-my-funny vision of ‘life.’” Seriously?
But there’s more. For Schaeffer, America’s hawkish tendencies and aggressive foreign policy directly relate to our fundamentalist reading of the Bible: “Thank you St. John (or whomever) loon was the author of the ‘book’/acid-trip of Revelation, for giving us a deluded roadmap so that the Americans who can’t find France on a map can get their foreign ‘policy’ marching orders direct from a ‘prophet’ huddling in a cave alone with his odd brain 2000 years ago.”
Aside from the fact that it is sad to see someone like Frank Schaffer, who once held to evangelical Christian beliefs, then Greek Orthodox beliefs, turn into such a Bible mocker, it is more than a stretch – shall we call it a leap of incredulity? – to claim that America fought (or is fighting) wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, among other places, because of a literal belief in hell and the Scriptures.
Interestingly, a study “appearing in the Public Library of Science journal PLoS ONE, found that criminal activity is lower in societies where people’s religious beliefs contain a strong punitive component than in places where religious beliefs are more benevolent. A country where many more people believe in heaven than in hell, for example, is likely to have a much higher crime rate than one where these beliefs are about equal. The finding surfaced from a comprehensive analysis of 26 years of data involving 143,197 people in 67 countries.”
According to Azim F. Shariff, professor of psychology and director of the Culture and Morality Lab at the University of Oregon, “The key finding is that, controlling for each other, a nation’s rate of belief in hell predicts lower crime rates, but the nation’s rate of belief in heaven predicts higher crime rates, and these are strong effects. . . . The finding is consistent with controlled research we’ve done in the lab, but here shows a powerful ‘real world’ effect on something that really affects people -- crime.”
Here in America, belief in hell remains prevalent, and a 2003 poll by George Barna indicated that 71% of the population “said that there is such a thing as Hell.” At the same time, “just one-half of 1% expect to go to Hell upon their death.” So, hell is real, but none of us are going there!
Putting aside our religious differences, perhaps the questions we need to ask ourselves are these: 1) Are there lasting consequences to our actions? 2) Will there be an ultimate judgment and final justice? 3) If so, how should we live today?
_____________________________
Michael Brown holds a Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University and has served as a professor at a number of seminaries. He hosts the nationally syndicated, daily talk radio show, the Line of Fire, and his latest book is The Real Kosher Jesus.
**Is Anyone Hellbound?**
Yes
Look, I’m sorry, but the Scriptures are as plain as can be, yet you’re denying what they say. Eternal torment isn’t a pleasant thing to contemplate, that’s true, but it’s a fact, no matter how you try to twist and turn to get round it. We can be thankful it isn’t God’s will for us, and that He provided a way to salvation in Jesus Christ.
With all due respect, I’m not going to argue Scriptural fact with you when you clearly don’t want to accept it. God bless.
There's a book called Heaven by Randy Alcorn. The author says that heaven really doesn't sound exciting when you think that it consists of sitting around on clouds playing harps. He believes pastors/priests should teach about heaven as much as hell so that people could actually be excited about what's to come.
He makes the point that where we go when we die isn't where we will spend eternity. Yes, we'll be with God forever, but as described in Revelation, His presence will dwell in the New Jerusalem, which will be on the new earth, remade after Christ's return to be even more perfect and beautiful than Eden. That's where we'll be.....home, only unimaginably better. It's a fantastic read.
Any so-called Christian, who does not believe in hell, may as well look into the eyes of Jesus and call him a fool. That is why, IMHO, these faux Cristians are no such thing.
To be a Christian one must beleive that Jesus is the Son of God, and that he died for our sins so that the gates of heaven would be opened for us. That is why he is called the Savior or the Redeemer.
So Christians who do not believe in hell are calling Jesus a fool, and my opinion is that they are the foolish ones.
Yes the Scriptures are plain and the plain explanation is Hell is not eternal and unbelievers aren’t tormented forever. Now that’s not saying that there isn’t any torment in Hell right now for the unbelievers. Of course there is. But as Scripture in Revelation 20 shows us, there is an end to death and Hell and unbelievers. If you have any Scriptural fact to deconstruct my points, I’d love to see them, but to date, I have not seen any, even from my own Pastor.
(By the way, as a Christian, it is your responcibility to present to me, a fellow Christian, Biblical facts that back up your disagreement. If I was a non-believer rejecting Scripture, then yes, wipe your sandals and leave, but that’s not the case.)
I realize this is a hard thing for some people to honestly analyze because good Christian churches and good Christian pastors have been simply passing on what they were told and refuse to look at this doctrine fully and honestly. I think one of the things that prevent pastors from preaching the truth of this is that so many Christians are uneducated on the whole of the Bible and would flee any church that preached this. Hense many pastors just don’t talk about Hell very much or in any detail.
I don’t expect you to admit to me on line that you agree with me, but I highly encourage you to go to the link I posted and read it all the way through. It does a very good and honest job of looking at the topic of Hell.
I presented Scripture to you. Plain, undeniable Scripture. If that isn't Biblical fact to you, what would be? And I'm not really wiping my sandals; I don't hold any animosity or ill will toward you at all. But there's no point in arguing what's in black and white. All we can do is go around and around...yes it is, no it isn't.
"I don’t expect you to admit to me on line that you agree with me, but I highly encourage you to go to the link I posted and read it all the way through. It does a very good and honest job of looking at the topic of Hell."
With all due respect, your link doesn't trump the Bible, which tells us clearly, and repeatedly, that the torment of the damned is eternal. We should put our faith in the word of God, not the mental gymnastics of fallible human beings.
First, I don’t think you are holding any animosity toward me.
Second, I responded to every verse you posted, with accurate analysis of each verse. If you disagree with the analysis, I would be happy to see it, but the verses you posted showed that facts support destruction of the soul and not an eternal torment of the soul.
Third, I never said my link trumps the Bible. If you read the link it studies what the Bible says about Hell and eternity. I agree with you that we should study the Bible and put our faith in what is clearly stated, but as I have been saying, what is clearly stated doesn’t fit the idea of an eternal torment. That doctrine does require mental gymnastics, specifically in the area of immortality.
That’s a false paradox, like “Can God create an object so large that God cannot move it.”
In this case, God is a true singularity. There is nothing else to compare God to in any way. This is why God has no name. Names exist only in relation to other things with names. So when asked for His name, His reply is “I am”.
So also, God cannot tell what is God and what is not God without the help of a “mirror”, as it were. The mirror, our universe, exists as a construct outside of, but within God by design.
I don’t agree. You can’t form a general concept about human rationality from the actions of the worst. You have to recognize the nature of Human beings. Humans are individuals with individual minds. Humans are reasoning beings but reason is not an instinct. It must be exercised by choice. Humans are capable of logic and of making the right choice. We should punish all instances of people consciously doing evil and not say “who are we to judge, we’re no better. After all we are all sinners.”
I don’t think it’s human rationality that is the cause of the evil in the world but the rejection of it. The refusal think and the refusal to judge the evil.
People who do horrible things may think they had good reasons but they can not justify them by reason. Not without dropping a whole lot of contexts. And reason is all about context keeping. The reason murder is wrong is precisely because it can not be justified by reason. So I do not agree that human reason is always subjective. If it was then there could be no such thing as a civil society. We could not punish anyone for crimes if reason was always subjective. Subjective reasoning is evil because it rejects reality in favor of feelings. That is why I think religion is contributing to many problems in society because it relies mostly on subjective reasoning. There are many good ethical points to it but the irrationality of it is a lethal tenet in my opinion.
ScubieNuc, I skimmed your article and a sentence toward the bottom stood out for me. The authors said (and I’m paraphrasing) that while there is Scriptural evidence for eternal punishment, it just doesn’t square with what they believe about God. In other words, it’s the old refusal to believe the truth because it’s unpleasant. What the authors don’t understand is, it isn’t God’s intention nor will that we go there; indeed, He doesn’t send us there. We make that choice ourselves.
The rest of the article was wiggling and twisting, trying to misrepresent the truth of Scripture for their own comfort, so they can go on believing in the God they have created in their own minds.
Again, I responded to you with Scripture, which is clearly worded and plainly understandable. If you choose to reject it, that’s up to you.
Frank Schaeffer, son of the late and revered evangelical leader, philosopher Francis Schaeffer, appeared in the movie and is more aggressive in his dismissal of hell. He writes in his column in the Huffington Post, “People ‘defending’ God have completely screwed up America and our politics. And their version of ‘God’ f----d up the first half of my life too.”
Franky, you're 60. It's time to get over it.
The new documentary Hellbound? has reignited discussion about the perennial topic of hell as well as revealed some very bizarre perspectives.
Some years ago, as I was contemplating the selection of screws in Menard's, someone just walked up to me and started talking about how the Bible said "the temperature in Hell is 72 degrees, did you know that?".
It floored me. I didn't know what to say to something like that. Now, I hope I'd have a better response.
Again, I don’t reject Scripture, I reject what you are reading into the Scriptures. You posted some Scriptures and I pointed out how they don’t support what you are reading into them.
Now, you can either show me where I’m wrong in my points about the Scriptures you posted or you can post other Scriptures which you think clearly support your position or you can write me off and ignore me (which is what it looks like you are doing). The last option happens all the time to me when this topic comes up because of the serious lack of clear Biblical support.
I can accept that many Christians may not recognize the fallacy of the “eternal torment” doctrine on this side of Heaven, but it is a loss to them/you, not me.
By the way, just throwing a few verses out there does not solidify your position. You need to show where they clearly support what you are proposing by context or word, otherwise it’s really a waste of time. I’m willing to study and delve into what the Word of God says, but you apparently are too afraid to. Ok, that’s your choice. Have a good night.
Sincerely
Scubie
RE: RE: “Can God create an object so large that God cannot move it.”
I don’t see how the above paradox applies to this -— Does God not know anything about how his creation will behave before He creates it?
I mean, does an Omniscient God know what earth will be like before He created it? Or does He have to create it in order to learn how it will be like?
I think in order for Omniscience to apply, the former has to be true instead of the latter.
AS for the words “I AM”, I understand that to mean that God is eternal, He has no beginning or end. He IS. Hence, in this sense, the phrase “to discover” only applies to time-bound beings like us.
The greatest Jewish philosopher of the 20th Century was arguably Martin Buber, a man of tremendous learning widely respected among theologians. He wrote some incredibly complex and detailed books, but his real masterpiece was a very short book entitled “I and Thou”.
If you just read the book at face value, it is an easy read, about the use of personal pronouns with man and God. However the truth is that each and every sentence has the complexity of a Zen Buddhist koan (”If a tree falls in the forest...”) That is, each and every sentence can be pondered for deeper truths for hours.
Layer after layer of understanding. What does God mean when He calls Himself “I AM”?
As such, it was too deep even for most theologians and scholars, who after calling it brilliant put it on a bookshelf and forgot about it. Yet any intelligent person might pick it up and gain amazing religious insights.
It would mean there is no such thing as objective morality. Does that matter?
While I can understand why we need to believe in it, I don’t believe objective morality really exists.
So you don't believe there is any objective right or wrong. You certainly have that right.
My use of the word "right" there is as in a "legal right" not as "correct". I made a confusing choice of words there.
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