Definitions count.
I believe Ansel12 and Natural Law are talking past each other to some extent, and it's because of differing definitions.
Cronos’ point shows that this isn't just a Roman Catholic problem. (I'm pinging this to the “Great Reformed Ping List” since it deals with Presbyterianism, and it's not just the PC(USA) — read to the end regarding problems in our own conservative PCA and OPC circles.)
I haven't seen the poll cited by Cronos, but if it surveyed people on the membership rolls or who claim to be affiliated in some way with the Presbyterian Church (USA) — the rapidly declining mainline liberal denomination — what that poll says may very well be true. Unlike the Roman Catholic Church, the PC(USA) is liberal and although the PC(USA) has conservative opposition groups, we would expect many of its leaders and active members to be liberal.
Very different numbers would likely result in a survey of members of the Presbyterian Church in America or Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and even more radical differences in the more conservative Presbyterian bodies like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Those denominations are strongly conservative and open liberalism on issues like abortion and homosexuality won't be tolerated for long.
Someone will point out, correctly, that the PC(USA) is far larger in total members and claimed adherents. PC(USA) numbers start looking much different when actual attendance is compared to the PCA and EPC, not the claimed membership numbers.
Similar issues exist with regard to the different numbers that show up when we consider baptized Roman Catholics, people who are on parish membership rolls somewhere, and people who actually attend Mass on a regular basis.
This threefold division between “self-identified” adherents of a religion, people on membership rolls, and people who are regular attenders needs to be considered in any serious demographic study of religion. It would be nice if that weren't necessary, but too many liberal churches (and a fair number of broadly evangelical churches as well) have grossly inflated membership rolls which do not reflect reality, and often have pastors or priests who don't care about church discipline or actually want large membership numbers to make themselves look good.
There's a bigger problem, however. Roman Catholics have their magisterium and as long as the Pope and the bishops remain solid on abortion and homosexuality, the church's position won't change. For Protestants, if we don't remember that church discipline is the third mark of the true church, our denominations will quickly collapse.
There are exceptions in the PCA and even the OPC to what is otherwise a firm stance on issues like abortion and homosexuality.
Note, for example, my posts on the problems with Misty Irons, the wife of a former OPC minister, Lee Irons, who is now a PCA ruling elder. Lee Irons views are unclear, but there is no question that his wife supports homosexual marriages and even spoke publicly to a homosexual Christian conference on her husband's experience in the OPC and how it compared to her much "better" treatment in a PCA congregation. Misty Irons will (or should) have major problems as her views become better known. Here are some links to Free Republic posts on this problem, along with other websites where I've been criticized even by some Orthodox Presbyterians who don't have a problem with Misty Irons:
“Old Reformed” views and “Escondido 2K” views of politics
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2916768/posts
“Should We Oppose Same-Sex Marriage?” (Westminster prof “could affirm domestic partnerships”)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2919093/posts
Pushing All Those Buttons, Making All That Noise
http://presbyterianblues.wordpress.com/2012/08/17/pushing-all-the-buttons-hearing-all-the-noise/
Talking About Talking About 2K
http://presbyterianblues.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/talking-about-talking-about-2k/
Reformed Journalist Calls for the Conservative Presbyterian and Reformed Community to Understand the Realities of “Radical Two Kingdoms” and “Escondido Two Kingdoms” Theologies
http://presweek.blogspot.com/2012/08/15-august-2012.html
The 2 Kingdoms Debate
http://www.weswhite.net/2011/02/the-2-kingdoms-debate/
Here's a clue to what you'll find over at those links, quoting an Orthodox Presbyterian member who doesn't seem to have a problem with Misty Irons and homosexual civil marriage: “Give him credit: culture warrior Darrell Todd Maurina sure knows which buttons to push. Now he’s made three listserves (OPC, URC, and the Warfield List) blow up over 2k and civil unions. Not content to merely push the “gay” button, he’s just started pushing all of them.)”
Here's my response:
People like Teddy Kennedy aren't anywhere near as much of a problem to the Roman Catholic Church as people like Misty Irons are to us. We need to deal with her, and deal with her now. The PC(USA) shows what happens when church discipline does not happen. The refusal to discipline liberal Auburn Affirmationists in 1924 when they had the chance led directly to the 1929 liberal takeover of Princeton Seminary and then the 1936 discipline of the conservative leaders who subsequently left to found the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
We forget the lessons of history at our peril.
the problem is among us all. At the end it is conservatives v/s liberals
Polling is useless compared to actual voting, or else republicans would often do great with Jews and Catholics because during democrat administrations, they often are angry at their president.
I don’t recall anyone here defending how Presbyterians vote, or denying how they vote, or denying that it is even possible to know how they vote, or even denying that the people being identified as Presbyterian are Presbyterian.
Those are the 4 angry attacks directed against political discussions of the devastating Catholic vote in America, in an attempt to shut off discussion and analysis or even awareness of it by conservatives.
Nobody here defends the Presbyterian denomination producing liberal, pro-abortion, pro-homosexual voters.
We don’t know how Presbyterians vote, they are small, and no one is fighting to pretend that they are not liberal anyway, most conservative interest is directed to where it should be, telling it’s members to change it, or leave it, and there is no push back from conservative, Presbyterian freepers on that, in fact, they always agree and want to discuss options and strategies of what they can do to make their denomination more conservative, and less friendly to the abortion and gay movements.
and as long as the Pope and the bishops remain solid on abortion and homosexuality
I would take issue with this statement. It's my recollection that a few years ago during a controversy surrounding Notre Dame, only about half of the U.S. bishops were willing to take a strong, public, pro life stand. And a few have taken fairly strong stands for unBiblical positions. So I wouldn't describe the American bishops as 'solid'.
Of course, I'd rather spend my energies at this point trying to clean up the PCA.