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To: boatbums; sayuncledave
You say that are certain main tenets that define Christianity, bb, and that the view that there are 30,000 denominations is propaganda - presumably because the main tenets are held to by these denominations.

I would point out that of the groups that hold to "the Bible alone" as their standard there is differentiation on many "main tenets": (1) simple predestination versus double predestination versus free will (2) Trinity versus Oneness (3) infant baptism versus believer's baptism (4) premillenialism versus postmillenialism versus preterism including pre tribulation and post tribulation varieties (5) signs and wonders continue versus signs and wonders ended with the apostolic age (6) dispensationalism versus covenant (7) the "prosperity Gospel" versus Christian simplicity (8) women in ministry versus women outside of ministry (9) substitutionary atonement versus "example of love" (10) Spiritual presence in Eucharist versus memorial, etc.

These are all main tenets to many, many Christians. There are more than 10,000 possible combinations of views right there.

Far from being "ridiculous" this kind of doctrinal pluralism is a stark reality.

45 posted on 09/12/2012 3:52:51 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake; sayuncledave; Salvation
There are lots of these new bjorn groups, new ones are created every day

  1. Some say one should believe in something as basic as Jesus was always God (Trinitarian position) or that Jesus Christ was man made God (Oneness PENTECOSTAL Protestant position) or the Angel Michael (Seventh Day Adventist Ellen G White teaching)
  2. Some say that there is the REAL Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Lutheran, some Anglicans, maybe even Methodists), or is it just a symbol (Calvinists)
  3. Some say that one MUST talk in tongues (Oneness Pentecostal) to display faith or not?
  4. Some say that there should be an episcopate (Lutheran, Anglican) or not (Presbyterians)?
  5. Some say that apostolic succession is important (Anglican) or not (others)?
  6. Some say that Baptism is for infants and sufficient (Presbyterian etc.) or not (Baptists)?
  7. Some say that God pre-damns people to hell (Calvinism) or not (others)?
  8. Some say that vestements are ok (or in the silly words of one poster allowing men in dresses and silly hats) (Anglicans, Lutherans, some Methodists, Presbyterians, even Baptists and Pentecostals) or not?
  9. Some say that Jesus came only for the salvation of a few (Calvinists) or he was Savior of the world (everyone else)?
  10. Some agree or disagree with soul sleep? (Calvin: "As long as (the soul) is in the body it exerts its own powers; but when it quits this prison-house it returns to God, whose presence, it meanwhile enjoys while it rests in the hope of a blessed Resurrection. This rest is its paradise. On the other hand, the spirit of the reprobate, while it waits for the dreadful judgment, is tortured by that anticipation. . .", Psychopannychia,
  11. Some agree or disagree with worshipping on a Sunday (Presbyterians, Pentecostals etc.) or not (Seventh Day Adventists)
  12. Some agree with the Adventists that one should follow kosher laws or not?
  13. Some believe that we still have spiritual gifts like prophecy amongst us (Pentecostals) or not (Presbyterians)
  14. Some agree with being "slain in the spirit" (Pentecostalism) or not (Presbyterianism, Lutheranism etc)
  15. Some say that Regeneration comes through Baptism (Lutheranism) or not (Baptists)
  16. Some say that grace can be resisted (Pentecostalism, Lutheranism, Methodism) or not (Calvinism)
  17. Some say that baptism is three-fold (Mennonites) or not?
  18. Some say that there is no free will (Calvinism) or that man has free will (Mennonites)
  19. Some say that it is faith + works (Mennonites: Menno Simons told the followers of Luther and Calvin: “If you wish to be saved, you must walk in the way of the Lord, hear His Word, and obey it. For nothing avails in heaven nor on earth unto salvation, … not even Christ with His grace, merit, blood, and death, if we are not born of God, … if we do not believe His Word sincerely, and if we do not walk in the light and do right. As John says: …>If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie.’” (Complete Writings of Menno Simons, p. 208)) or not?
  20. Some say that there is imputed righteousness (Calvinism) or not (Mennonites)
Which of these are "true" ?

Of course, there's a lot of change happening. Next week the North-Western Evangelical Bible-Reformed branch of PresbyMennonCongregationalutherAdventipentecostathism is due to split into the Central-North-Western Evangelical Bible-Reformed branch of PresbyMennonCongregationalutherAdventipentecostathism and the Central-Southern-North-Western Evangelical Bible-Reformed branch of PresbyMennonCongregationalutherAdventipentecostathism, but this is good driven as there as a dispute in the Congregation on matters of doctrine, Bobama thought that he should be Preach-pasto-Prophet Elder on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and alternate Sundays while Michelle thought that she should be that -- as she had yoga-pilates-kickboxing class on Thursdays.

47 posted on 09/12/2012 4:58:20 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: wideawake; sayuncledave; Salvation
the problem is the motto "semper reformanda" -- always reforming. There are new directions being found, new interpretations everyday.

Each new bunch of Reformatters reformats the old.
  1. You have the first generation namely Lutheran sticking close to orthodoxy with the Lutherans holding to the True Presence in the Eucharist, to Baptismal regeneration etc.
  2. Generation 2: Then you have the Calvin-Zwingli crowd rejecting these two as well as other aspects of orthodoxy
  3. Generation 3: Knox and the Anglican compromise
  4. Generation 4: The Unitarians like Michael Servetus who went from being Catholic to Lutheran to Reformed to denying the Trinity.
  5. Generation 5: the Baptists who now rejected infant baptism (quite unlike their namesakes the Anabaptists (now called Mennonites)) and said that there was a great Apostasy in the first centuries of Christendom (Gen 1-3 took later centuries as the dates of their "Great Apostasy")
  6. Generation 6: the Restorationists at the Great Awakening, like
    • The Millerites, to become the Seventh DayAdventists -- with Ellen G White saying that Jesus was the same as the Archangel Michael and that Satan woudl take the sins of the world at the end of time and other beauties. They came up with their own version of the Bible
    • The Unitarians and Universalists -- reborn and reinvigorated by this reformatting, they tossed out the Trinity and eventually they end up as they are today where they believe in nothing
    • Jehovah's Witnesses: they tossed out the Trinity too and came up with their own version of the Bible
    • The Mormons: they took the Trinity and made it three gods. They too came up with their own version of the Bible
  7. Generation 7: the Orthodo Presbyterian C, the FourSquare Ahoy! Pentecostalists, the Raelians, the Branch Davidians, the Creflo-Dollar crowd, the Jesse Dupantis (I went to visit Jesus in heaven and comforted Him) etc -- one step further beyond generation 6
  8. Generation 8: ... any one of the new sects formed since 1990

48 posted on 09/12/2012 4:59:14 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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