Posted on 08/27/2012 6:30:52 PM PDT by stpio
“As far as God forcing Mary, I have already answered this plainly. The incarnation would have happened regardless because God either would have found some other willing woman or, absent of any willing woman, could have raised up the promised “seed” from the very stones of the ground. How is this possible? I don’t know.”
~ ~ ~
No one prays to saints in Heaven to worship them. The problem is understanding the term “PRAY TO.” You, me, all Christians pray for a loved one to God, we intercede, asking God’s help for them. The same for the saints in Heaven. We ask the saints to intercede to God for us here. We are all one big family. So, you can speak to Mary in prayer.
Doesn’t it make sense then, Mary in Heaven has powerful intercession with the Trinity.
God gives and respects everyone’s free will, He would not take it away from Mary. She could of said no. The excuse, He would go to another woman if Mary said no is a weak excuse. Nor could God be contained in a person of sin. Mary is an exception of God, she was conceived without original sin and you do accept other exceptions in the Bible.
A former Protestant had trouble with Marian devotion. She was frustrated about it. Opening the Bible, she came
upon 3 kings, there it shows the Queen has special influence
with the king, her son. Seee...it fits. Greater in the
New Covenant, Mary asks Our Lord’s intercession at the
wedding at Cana, like Solomon, Jesus does not refuse her.
And notice, in the original, the Vulgate and it’s English
translation http://www.drbo.org/, the word in verse 19 is throne. The KJV changes the word to “seat.” A queen has a throne, the mother of the king in the Old Covenant was Queen. Mary is Queen of the New Covenant.
3Kings 2:19-20
Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to her, and sat down upon his throne: and a THRONE was set for the king’s mother, and she sat on his right hand. [20] And she said to him: I desire one small petition of thee, do not put me to confusion. And the king said to her: My mother, ask: for I must NOT turn away thy face.
Oh, noes!!!! My permanent record???!!! Better do a better job of actually READING threads rather than presuming you know what someone believes or cares about. And, you're STILL being creepy.
No Christian deifies Our Lord’s mother.
“True. But Catholics do.”
~ ~ ~
I just gave you Scriptural example and you ignore 3 Kings 2: 19-20. Mary is not God, no one defies her. Protestants object to her place in God’s plan, that’s why “throne” was changed to “seat” in 3 Kings 2:19. Mary is the King’s mother, she is queen.
King James and his fellas (translators) changed the word, hmmm, I wonder why?
There has always been one plan, believe, Mary is special,
she loves you.
It depends on what you mean by deify. You shall be as gods, says Scripture. When the saints rise in glory, they shall be as gods.But we believe that Mary has ‘risen” already. She was the first to know Jesus, both as man and God. The first to be with him, body and soul, in eternity. Her choice was like that of the angels, or Eve’s and it was once and forever. She chose to obey. And you think she walked away from that? You have a low opinion of ....Jesus.
Evil is incarnate in all of us, every day. The devil can do nothing of his own power. We must give him permission to use us. The “Trickster” lies to us, persuades us that evil is good and good evil. Because our will is weak, damaged by the Fall, and our minds darkened and confused. We have a hard time sorting it all out. But God has given us guides, not only the angels, but the saints as models, and often saints we encounter in passing on the streets. But also demons, and again, we must pray that we be able to discern one from the other.
Again incarnate is a strong term.
If man is evil incarnate, then there is nothing good about him; this means that God's image, being good, is not in mankind (at all). Clearly this is not the case, as the Noah-covenant mentions man bearing God's image (and commanding capital punishment for those that murder [willfully destroy that image]).
The devil can do nothing of his own power. We must give him permission to use us.
The devil, strictly speaking doesn't seem to be a person: angels don't seem to have will - a necessary quality of personhood. -- (Mind, Will, Emotion)
The “Trickster” lies to us, persuades us that evil is good and good evil. Because our will is weak, damaged by the Fall, and our minds darkened and confused. We have a hard time sorting it all out. But God has given us guides, not only the angels, but the saints as models, and often saints we encounter in passing on the streets.
Agreed; although you leave out the foremost of the guides: Jesus (past-tense example) & the Holy Spirit (present-tense teacher). It is the Holy Spirit that moves in the other guides, such as the saint on the street, to teach/encourage/rebuke.
But also demons, and again, we must pray that we be able to discern one from the other.
I fully agree. Discernment is requisite, prayer is needful, and wisdom essential. But God is good, and being good, he disciplines those who need it and extends grace to those who need it; God is a good parent and will not crush His children for [evil/malicious] joy, but may require us to suffer in His work on Earth. (I believe there is a large class of doctrine/tradition that can be classified as "doesn't, in the end, matter" -- what does is Jesus and his work on Earth [bringing sinful man to God by destroying the hold of sin and death], sealed/signified by his resurrection -- the real truth we will see clearly when we see Him-who-is-true clearly, though right now we see him as though through filthy, scratched, and ruined glasses.)
Making it quite “personal”.
Jesus and the Spirit are God. In any case, I believe they use the tools at hand, whether it be dead matter or living flesh; There is, and always has been been a gnostic feel to much of Protestant teaching, as though the Spirit is “above” all things. Gross as it may sound , the Holy Spirit can be found in a pile of dog poop. We who hold to the sacramental system do not think that Jesus is in exile in heaven. And by Jesus, I mean the man. There is, paradoxically, a kind of evangelical longing for meeting him in the flesh. I have seen some movie fables in which Jesus comes down literally to meet and have intercourse with men. The idea of incarnate angels is, of course, very popular. We think he is here, behind the “veil," of course, in the Tabernacle. Well, we “believe” it, for we do not have that holy fear that petrified Luther at his first mass, but a kind of schizophrenia, and that casualness that Paul warns the Corinthians about in approaching him, doing everything but metaphorically slapping him on the back. I hope he forgives our presumption.
Maybe you two could move from this “making this thread about each other”.
I seems to me that it’s not too Scriptural to call someone “creepy”.
Brothers, you are among those called. Consider your situation.” (St. Paul)
1Peter 2:17
Since Christ came through Mary as a baby He took on her humanity while being divinity. When his divinity is also in the flesh from Mary he wanted a mother. Since she was his mother with his divinity. She is the Mother of God. Not before God but because God wanted a Mother whether you like it or not. Understanding this logic is important.
Now about veneration.
V. Posture in Prayer, Veneration and Worship
Deut. 5:9 - God's command, "you shall not bow down to them" means "do not worship them." But not all bowing is worship. Here God's command is connected to false worship.
Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.
Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.
Gen. 24:52 - Abraham's servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.
Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.
Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.
1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.
1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.
2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.
1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.
1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.
2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.
Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.
Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.
Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God's Holy Temple.
Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.
Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.
1 Macc. 4:40,55 - Judas and the faithful fell face down to the ground to praise heaven and worship God.
2 Macc. 10:4,26; 13:12 - Maccabeus and his followers fall down prostrate praying to God.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html#saints-V
Well, just I? He is calling me deceptive and Roy some sort of liar or such. Why are you on me for stating the truth? I don’t like Jesus being misrepresented.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Almost as creepy as you following me on every thread that talks about Catholicism.
As if! LOL.
8-)
Yes. Each thread about catholics that I’m on, ta-da, guess who follows. Quit stalking. it’s creepy...
and now stalking private messages. Quit it and quit stalking on each thread about Catholics.
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