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To: boatbums

“Not only that but we should remember that we are not electing a “Pope” nor a bishop or even a pastor, but a president - a non-religious office.”

For the secularist, you may be right. But what about the Christian? Our allegiance is first and foremost to Christ and the dictates of Scripture, not ourselves. Did you know that Romans 13 Paul identifies civil rulers as ministers of God, just as our ecclesiastical ministers are ministers of God. Since Paul made no distinction, should’t the Christian hold civil ministers to the same standard we hold our religious ministers? Isn’t it possible that’s what the Lord intended for our own protection?

From Matthew Poole’s (English theologian 1624-1679) commentary on the Romans 13 passage:

“That is the end of his office. And for this reason God hath invested in him with His authority. The Scripture applieth the same title to him that preacheth the Word, and to him that beareth the sword; both are God’s ministers, and there is one common end of their ministry, which is the good and welfare of mankind.“


93 posted on 08/23/2012 11:03:13 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt
For the secularist, you may be right. But what about the Christian? Our allegiance is first and foremost to Christ and the dictates of Scripture, not ourselves. Did you know that Romans 13 Paul identifies civil rulers as ministers of God, just as our ecclesiastical ministers are ministers of God. Since Paul made no distinction, should’t the Christian hold civil ministers to the same standard we hold our religious ministers? Isn’t it possible that’s what the Lord intended for our own protection?

I agree, our duty is to obey God rather than man - when the choice is needed. However, the president of the United States IS a secular position. Romney will have NO power to impose his religious beliefs on Americans like the Romans did during their run at governing a nation. Our Constitution protects us from such a thing - something INTENTIONALLY put in there for such a purpose. Now, do I believe God sets up and removes nations and their leaders? yes, he does. We also know that in Israel's history, God sometimes gave them cruel, sadistic and unbelieving kings as punishment for their own unbelief and disobedience. Modern America is not the Israel of old - God does not rule over the whole world YET.

The passage in Romans 13 says:

    Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

We are commanded to obey those set up in authority over us and when Paul wrote this, remember, pagan Rome was the world ruling power - hardly a Christian one. Those set up as rulers have a divine responsibility to execute judgment, to keep the laws, protect the rights of its citizens and to punish those who do wrong. "His power is delegated to him for the defense and encouragement of the good, and the punishment of the wicked; and he has authority to punish capitally, when the law so requires: this the term sword leads us to infer. For he is the minister of God, a revenger - Θεοῦ διακονος εστιν εκδικος, For he is God's vindictive minister, to execute wrath; εις οργην, to inflict punishment upon the transgressors of the law; and this according to the statutes of that law; for God's civil ministers are never allowed to pronounce or inflict punishment according to their own minds or feeling, but according to the express declarations of the law." (Clarke's Commentary on the Bible)

These are secular responsibilities and the law is not set up to be the religious leader, hence the term "minister" should not be taken in the same sense as one who is a minster of the Gospel. These are minsters of justice and law and, by that, I don't think it must necessarily mean that ALL secular leaders MUST be Christians. Is it an ideal? SURE! But, as long as we live in this fallen world filled with fallible people, we will never know a true king who rules in the hearts of men. But, one day, we will. When that time comes, there will be no need for laws, because the law of God will be written on our hearts and we will be ruled by Jesus Christ, the King of kings and the Lord of lords. Until then, we should use the rights we have in this country to elect those who best represent our values and who exhibit strong leadership skills, lead good and moral lives and who will execute the laws of the land in a fair and just way. Thank God we HAVE that right and can also boot out those who fail to live up to those ideals. The Apostle Paul was not so fortunate, and he ended up being executed for his faith - something I genuinely fear Obama would be delighted to institute given the chance. With this election, we don't have the luxury of waiting for the perfect man/woman. We have to do what is best for our country with what we have and leave it in God's hands.

95 posted on 08/23/2012 11:47:04 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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