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The Eucharist -- John 6
CatholicThinker.net ^ | 2009 | CatholicThinker

Posted on 08/18/2012 9:13:06 PM PDT by Salvation

The Eucharist

All Christians know what "the Eucharist" is - virtually all celebrate it in some form.  Yet the teachings regarding it, and consequently the emphasis put upon it, by the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox, who share the same theology and same apostolic priesthood), is probably the single most important differentiation between Catholicism and Protestantism.

In this document I will demonstrate that the early Christian Church believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, centered their faith lives on this (the Mass), that Scripture completely and fully supports the Catholic teachings, and that virtually every Church Father of whom we have record confirmed this in his writings.  Some of these Fathers were direct disciples of Apostles in the 1st century of Christendom.

Protestants have many arguments against the Eucharist and the Mass.  They understand, correctly, that these things are the very heart of Catholicism (“Destroy the Mass, destroy the Church” – Luther).  To touch upon perhaps the greatest error (or most twisted teaching): Christ is not “re-crucified” at the Mass (a ridiculous and purposefully ignorant teaching): rather, Christ’s single, timeless Sacrifice on Calvary is “made present” and presented to the Father.  (Such a concept was readily to familiar to the early Christians, most of them Jews who considered their Passover sacrifice to be the “re-living” of the Exodus, not just its remembrance.)  God, of course, lies outside the bounds of time; all time is stretched out before Him to see.  Because humans offend Him with sin constantly, and in the present, it is fitting that His just anger be appeased continually by Christ’s propitiatory Sacrifice.

And this is exactly what we see in Hebrews and Revelations, understood by the first Christians as describing the Heavenly liturgy: the Lamb of God is presented continually to the Father, a propitiatory and eternal Sacrifice.

Christ ordered us to eat His Body and drink His Blood, in those words, and He meant just what He said, as we will see.

I can only scratch the surface of the deep and amazing theology of the Eucharist in this short essay.  I can present the core teachings of Scripture and of the early Church Fathers but I cannot, in the interests of reasonable length, speak to every “objection” or cover all the evidence completely.  Such is not my goal – and in any case I am not a scholar.  My goal is to whet the appetite of the sincere Christian to explore this topic at greater length.  What I will say is that the evidence for the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist on the Mass is overwhelming; the Catholic teaching and interpretation is the only reasonable one based on Scripture and the only one that is in harmony with the teachings and practice of the only early Christian Church we know of.  This is why it was not ever seriously challenged or even questioned until more than 1,500 years after Christ.  (If you think I am posturing here, the objective reader will see that is not the case.)

(Some Protestant denominations – such as the Anglicans - teach something somewhat similar to the Catholic ("Universal") teaching, but there is missing from all of them the heart of the Catholic teaching, that the Eucharist is both a thanksgiving and a re-presentation of Christ’s Sacrifice in propitiation for sin and that the species of bread and wine are really, substantially, and permanently changed by the act of consecration performed by the priest, who stands in persona Christi in Christ's stead.)

[Note: the Douay-Rheims translation of Scripture is used throughout.  In the words of John Salza, “It does not suffer from the defects of many modern Bibles (non-literal, dynamic translations; inclusive language.”  And “It is a word-for-word translation of the Latin Vulgate (compiled by St. Jerome from the original Hebrew and Greek under Pope St. Damasus), which is the official translation of the Catholic Church (the Vulgate has been universally used in the Latin Rite for over 1,600 years).”  If I occasionally find a passage in this translation obtuse –and I do – I merely examine the passage in a more modern translation as well and then the meanings of the archaic English idioms are made clear.

I declare that there is no argument presented herein that is in anyway dependent upon this particular translation of Scripture, and that if anyone wishes to challenge me on that with respect to a particular favored version (such as the KJV) I will respond.]

 

Scripture

John Chapter 6

The Lord's words establishing the basis for the doctrine are spoken in the Last Supper accounts, but possibly most importantly in John Ch 6.  Here are verses 46-65:

[46]  Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. [47]  Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. [48]  I am the bread of life. [49]  Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. [50]  This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. [58] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. [59] This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. [60] These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

[61] Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? [62] But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? [63] If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? [64] It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. [65] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

[66] And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. [67]  After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him.

There are a few important things to note about this passage:

Christ’s followers here – the non-believing ones – could not accept that He meant His words literally.  So, He repeated himself four times – four times He stated directly that one must “eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood” to “have live” (eternal live, that is). 

  • When these disciples responded with incredulity or doubt, asking for clarification, He only repeated His words, more strongly (adding “drink his blood”).
  • Some of His disciples “walked no more with Him” as a result of this teaching.  He did not attempt to keep them from going, as He surely would have if they had merely misunderstood the words.  No, it is even more obvious that His words meant exactly what He said, literally, for if not the teaching was not “hard” and would not have resulted in disciples who could not accept it.  In fact, this is the only instance recorded in the Gospels of Christ losing followers over a doctrinal matter – because they could not accept a teaching as given.
  • The literal meaning of the Greek word used for "eats" (trogon) actually means "chewing" or "gnawing” – a very graphic word that would not be used in metaphor.

The Protestant counter to the clear meaning of this text – the Catholic interpretation – relies on rather tortured logic and forced (not just non-literal) exegesis.  Christ, responding to those who found His words too “hard” to hear, said “It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing”; Protestants assert that Christ is now saying that, actually, flesh – His flesh – is of no real import.  But clearly this just doesn’t make sense – if that is what He meant then just went out of His way to make the point that His flesh is most critical only to contradict Himself – but allow those who evidently “misunderstood” Him to walk away anyway!

In fact, what Christ was doing in that verse was condemning human reason which prevented the scoffers from accepting and believing what He was telling them.  This is evident when He condemns judging “according to the flesh” later in chapter 8.  Christ is telling these disciples to open their intellect to divine guidance to understand the divine truth He was giving them.

[As a brief aside, a tendency in modern Protestant spirituality seems to be to downplay the physical world in favor of the “spiritual” – however, the physical world is intrinsically good because God made it and, furthermore, the Incarnation – God taking flesh – is indeed the pivotal Event of the universe.  Christ’s flesh gives us eternal life, which the elect will one day share with him in our glorified bodies.]

[We can see that some of the fatal flaws in the Protestant cornerstone of sola scriptura are evident here.  This doctrine says essentially that Scripture is plain enough for anyone to easily understand, yet when it clearly teaches something that is not to the liking of some readers, rather forced attempts to bend the plain meaning are introduced.  What is taught here is very simple and direct, and in any case, if it is not, this only goes to show that personal interpretation of Scripture apart from any Authority (that is, the Authority given by Christ to the Church's first head, Peter, and from he to his successors) is not possible or intended.]

This short document that expands upon the points I’ve made here:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp

The Last Supper

Jesus Christ instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper; on that basic point, sans definitions, all or almost all Christians are in agreement.  The differences lie in these questions:

  • When Christ said "This is My Body" did he mean what He said?
  • When Christ said "Do this in remembrance of Me" what, exactly, was He commanding, and what do those "remembrances" constitute?

The Catholic teachings are that Christ meant exactly what He said when He consecrated the bread and wine and that these became, instantly, mystically His true Body and Blood, and that the "remembrance" of the Eucharist is actually its reliving - it's making-present of that event, which was a sacrifice (because Christ's actual Body and Blood were present), the Calvary Sacrifice itself.  These things are all made plain by both the Greek text of Scripture, other Scriptural passages, and the practice and teachings of the early Church and all the Church Fathers.  In fact, the actual meaning of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist was accepted so uncritically by the Church the details of it were not debated until about ten centuries in and the teaching was not seriously questioned, much less rejected, until the "Reformation" - more than 1,500 years after Christ.  This is made clear by the statements of the Church Fathers later in this document.

Before we look at an analysis of the Greek text, consider this basic point about Christ's own words at the Last Supper: If He had intended to mean that the bread and wine were merely symbols of His Body and Blood, He would have said so.  He was speaking to uneducated men who hung on His every word and who would build His Church.  Since it is an undebatable fact that the Church believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist universally for 1,500 years it would have been utterly scandalous and preposterous for Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, to speak the words that caused this belief if they were not actually true.

And now, the Greek, courtesy of John Salza, which refutes the (contrived) Protestant objection that the bread remained bread because Christ's "this" refers to the bread: "The Greek transliteration of "This is my Body which is given for you" in Lk 22:19 is Touto esti to soma mou to uper hymon didomenon.  Like many languages, Greek adjectives have genders (masculine, feminine, or neuter) which agree with their object nouns.  The word 'this' (touto) is a neuter adjective.  The word 'bread' (artos) is a masculine noun.  This means that the neuter adjective 'this' is not referring to the masculine noun 'bread', because their genders do not correspond" (emphasis mine).  "Instead, 'this' refers to 'body' (soma), which is a neuter noun.  In light of the grammatical structure, Jesus does not say 'This bread is my body,' as the Protestant argument contends.  Instead, Jesus says 'This [new substance] is my body,' or more literally, 'This [new substance] s the body of me.'

Paul emphasizes the connection between 'this' and Jesus' 'body' even more conspicuously.  In 1 Cor 11:24, Paul records Jesus' words as Touto mou esti to soma.  As we can see, mou (of me) comes immediately after toutu (this).  Literally, this phrase is translated as 'This of me is the body.'  That is, Paul connects 'this' to the Person of Jesus more closely by adding 'of me' right after 'this' and right before 'body'.  Again, the Greek does not allow 'this' to refer to the bread, but to the new substance, which is Jesus' body."

The passages concerning the wine/Blood in Mt 26:28 uses completely analogous Greek grammar.

Salza also notes that the phrase "touto esti" (this is) is used six other times in the Gospels and in every single case its object is literal - not once is it used in a metaphor or any sort of symbolism.

Another common Protestant objection is that Christ was referring to his future death in mentioning His Body & Blood.  But the tense of Christ's language in the Greek is what's know as double-present; it is absolutely in the present tense and cannot possibly refer to any future event.  (Christ's saying "This is My Body" is mystical and reveals the (instantaneous) action of the Divine in the same way His healings did: "Pick up your mat and walk."  The Word speaks and it is.)

It is very interesting to note that Christ's phrase "blood of the covenant [or testament]" is identical to Moses' as he sprinkles the Israelites with animal blood.  As Salza notes, "The Jewish apostles would have understood immediately that Jesus was instituting, at that very moment a New Covenant sacrifice that would replace the Old Covenant sacrifices."

The Memorial Sacrifice

After Christ consecrated and distributed His Body and Blood, He commanded the apostles to "Do this in remembrance of Me."  That word - remembrance - is very important, because the Greek word it is translated from refers to a deep and complex concept that has no proper word or even short phrase in modern languages.  That word is anamnesis, and, according to the best evidence, means a type of memorial sacrifice.  What is a memorial sacrifice?  Note that it's not the memorial of a sacrifice but rather a sacrifice that is itself a memorial - a critical distinction.

Because there is some contention regarding the meaning of anamnesis, we will look at how it is used elsewhere in the New Testament and the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament).  

In the Old Testament, anamnesis is used to refer to either a bread sacrifice or a blood sacrifice - a memorial sacrifice, that is.  Lev 24, full of the same terminology of priests, eating, memorial sacrifice, incense and bread that surrounds the Eucharist, speaks of the anamnesis of Aaron's priesthood.  And Numbers 10 speaks of the burnt offerings of anamnesis offered to God to atone for sin.  The parallels with the New Covenant Sacrifice are plentiful.

Anamnesis is used only once in the New Testament outside of the Last Supper narratives, in Heb 10, where Paul speaks of the Levitical sacrifices.

So, the concept of anamnesis existed in the Hebrew culture (religion): as mentioned in the Introduction the Passover itself has always been regarded by Jews as not just a remembrance of the Exodus, but as a re-living or "making present" of those events.  And so it is with the Eucharist: It is the making-present, in a mystical way, of Christ's sacrificial death.  When Christ said "Do this anamnesis" He literally said "Celebrate this memorial sacrifice".  And so the Church has always done:

1 Corinthians

But we needn’t guess as to whether or not the first Christians understood Christ’s directive about eating His flesh as He said it or not, for this is made apparent with further clarity elsewhere in Scripture (and in the record of the early Church).  In 1 Corinthians, Paul discusses the nature and importance of the Eucharist.  Here is Ch 11:23-30:

[23] For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. [24]  And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. [25]  In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

[26] For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

This passage makes it extremely clear that Paul – who received his understanding of it directly from Jesus Christ, as he declares – regards the Eucharist as truly the Body and Blood of Christ.

First, Paul adds a critical interpretation to the words of the Last Supper: “For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.”  Thus, the Eucharist is primarily about Christ’s death – that is, His Cacrifice.  Paul does not even mention the Lord’s resurrection in describing the essential quality of the Eucharist.  (This demonstrates that the primary nature of the Eucharist (Mass) is solemn, because it is primarily about the Lord’s Sacrifice.  The Eucharist (Mass) is primarily a sacrifice and secondarily a meal – because in all of God’s sacrificial covenants the sacrificial victim is consumed.  We will return to this sub-topic later.) 

Next, Paul is chastising the Corinthians for not having proper respect for the Eucharist – for receiving it unworthily.  He points out that because of this many of them are sick and dying.  “Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord... For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep” (have died).  

Probably the biggest take-away from this passage is that the Eucharist cannot be simply a symbol.  It is impossible that anyone be “guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord” if the Eucharist were not indeed actually “the Body and Blood of the Lord”, and not merely a symbol of such!  Furthermore, the “guilt” (krima) that Paul says is called down upon those who partake of the Eucharist unworthily is nothing less than eternal damnation – it is used to mean such by Paul in both Romans and 1 Tim.  As John Salza says, “Either God inspired Paul to impose and unjust penalty on us (which is impossible) or the Eucharist is the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.”  There are no other possibilities.

[Protestant apologists, aware of this passage’s relevance to the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist, frequently attack Paul’s use of the terms “bread and cup”, asserting that this demonstrates that Paul actually did regard the Eucharistic species as mere bread and wine.  But, like many Protestant challenges to Catholic doctrines, this argument seems either ignorant or contrived when the facts are considered (and like them all it is incorrect).  Paul uses the terms somewhat interchangeably as to the senses the Body & Blood do appear as bread and wine – he is emphasizing the fact that while the sacred species may appear to be mere bread and wine, it is necessary to “discern” the Body and Blood of the Lord in them – or suffer the punishment he warns of.  Again, Paul’s dire warning, and indeed the entire passage, simply make no sense if it is simple bread and wine that are being discussed.]

Chapter 10 of 1 Corinthians also contains some Eucharistic theology we will consider.  In this chapter Paul reminds the Corinthians of the experience of the Israelites under Moses: the miracles of the parting of the sea and of the manna, their spiritual food:

[1]  For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea. [2]  And all in Moses were baptized, in the cloud, and in the sea: [3]  And did all eat the same spiritual food, [4]  And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.) [5]  But with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the desert.

He then warns them against idolatry (as the Israelites also fell into) and temptation.  And then, he instantly shifts to speaking of the Eucharist:

[16]  The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? [17]  For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread. [18]  Behold Israel according to the flesh: are not they, that eat of the sacrifices, partakers of the altar?

Clearly he is drawing a parallel between the Israelites spiritual food – the manna – and the spiritual food of the New Covenant.  That is, like so many things in the New Covenant that were prefigured in the Old, the manna prefigured the Eucharist.  Now, consider this:

  • The manna was truly miraculous: food created miraculously out of nothing in the desert. 
  • Every element of the New Covenant that is prefigured in the Old is greater than that which is prefigured.
  • Thus, the Eucharist is indeed a greater miracle than the manna.

If the Eucharist were nothing but a symbolic representation of Christ in what possible way would it be greater than the miraculous creation of food out of nothing for thousands of people?  In no way would it be.  However, since the Eucharist is actually God Himself becoming our food and drink, it is indeed a far greater miracle than the manna in the desert.

[John Salza’s exegesis of 1 Corinthians 10 & 11 in The Biblical Basis for the Eucharist is the best I’ve ever seen, and includes in-depth analysis of significances of the original Greek text that are largely lost in translation.  Here is one example: “Paul’s use of the word ‘participation’ (or ‘partake’ in the Bible version I’m using) (Greek, koinonia) also demonstrates that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.  Koinonia means an actual, intimate communion, or sharing, in something else.  T does not refer to a symbolic or metaphorical participation.  The Corinthians would have certainly understood Paul’s usage of the term.”]

Hebrews & Revelation

The books of Hebrews and Revelation contain vivid imagery of Jesus Christ in heaven, interceding for us before the Father with His shed Blood as a propitiatory sacrifice.  The theology of the Eucharist is bound up in this imagery, as taught and believed by the early Church.  It is a stunningly deep and beautiful theology, woven together with the teachings and prophecies of the Old Testament, but eclipsing the Old Covenant as the perfection of God eclipses fallen man.

Melchisedech and Jesus Christ

In the Letter to the Hebrews, Paul makes the case that Christ is a priest "in the order of Melchisedech"  (or "Melchizedek").  "Thou art a priest forever, in the order of Melchisedech" (5:6); "Called by God a high priest according to the order of Melchisedech" (5:10); "Where the forerunner Jesus is entered for us, made a high priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech." (6:20).  John Salza points out the most pertinent details of Melchisedech priesthood:

- Melchisedech is described as the "king of Salem" - this also means "king of peace", a prototype of one of Christ's titles.

- Melchisedech was made a priest by God directly, not via bloodline (as with the Levitical priesthood); and his priesthood was eternal as well.  This foreshadowed Christ and His New Testament priests, who acquire their priesthood via an oath (sacramentum).

- Melchisedech offered an unbloody sacrifice of bread and wine, a thanksgiving (eucharistein) for God's deliverance of Abram from his enemies.  "As Melchisedech offered his sacrifice of behalf of Abram, Jesus would offer His sacrifice on Abram/Abraham's [spiritual] offspring those who are members of His Church" (Salza).

- Melchisedech is greater than Abram, one of the holiest men in all of Scripture.  This is made evident by the fact that Melchisedech blesses Abram.

- Since Melchisedech was called a priest but made no bloody offering, his bread and wine offering must have been a sacrifice (this is sometimes contested by Protestant apologists trying to wiggle out of the plain interpretation of the text).  This also makes clear (as do many other things), that Christ's Last Supper offering was a sacrifice since Christ's priesthood is "in the order of Melchisedech".  "Further, because Scripture says Jesus made a 'single sacrifice' and 'single offering', this means that the Last Supper sacrifice and the sacrifice of the Cross are the same sacrifice" (Salza, and the emphasis is his).

Salza goes on to describe the many parallels between the Mass and Melchisedech's offering.

Christ in Heaven Today & Forever

After introducing Melchisedech as a prototype of Christ, Paul, mainly in chapters 8-10, discusses the priesthood of Christ in detail - the eternal priesthood He exercises before the Father in heaven.  That it is Christ's perpetual priesthood in heaven that is being discussed by Paul is made completely clear.  Furthermore, he states directly, "If then he were on earth, he would not be a priest: seeing that there would be others to offer gifts according to the law" (8:4).  (Meaning He would not be a priest since He was not a Levite.)

- "Now of the things which we have spoken, this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of majesty in the heavens, A minister of the holies, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord hath pitched, and not man" (8:1-2).

- "But Christ, being come an high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, that is, not of this creation: Neither by the blood of goats, or of calves, but by his own blood, entered once into the holies, having obtained eternal redemption (9:11-12).

We come now to the meat of the matter: What Christ the Eternal High Priest is doing in heaven, as "minister of the holies and of the true tabernacle".  Salza: "Scripture teaches us that the principle duty of a priest is to offer sacrifice.  Paul in the epistle to the Hebrews says, 'for every high priest... is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sin' (5:1)... Paul then says about Jesus, in the very same verse, 'hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer'.

Note that Paul says it is “necessary” for Jesus to “have something to offer” in Heaven!  Where do Protestants get the notion (that they tend to express so confidently along with several other of their core theological tenets that actually contradict Scripture) that Christ’s work was completely and entirely finished on the Cross?  In a sense, it was, as Christ’s Sacrifice is singular, the same Sacrifice continually presented to the Father for the appeasement of our (constant) sins, yet according to Paul Christ is indeed doing something in Heaven on our behalf.

To summarize this important passage:

  • All priests, according to Paul, offer "gifts and sacrifices"
  • Christ, then, the Eternal High Priest, also must have something to offer
  • The only thing the Father could possibly accept as a propitiatory sacrifice from Christ would be the Cross, because anything else would be less than this, and since the Father has decreed from all time that Christ's Sacrifice was what was necessary, He could not at some other time be satisfied by any other gift or sacrifice.
  • The reason perpetual appeasement is necessary, until the end of the world, is that mankind persists in sin until the end of the world.
  • Thus, Christ perpetually presents to the Father His one-time Sacrifice, His shed Blood, and the Father is appeased.

Protestants are rightly disturbed by the notion of Christ being "re-crucified", either in heaven or the Mass.  But this is not what Scripture teaches and not what occurs.  Salza notes that whenever Scripture speaks of Christ's suffering it is always in the past tense.  But when it speaks of His Sacrifice, it is in the present tense and connected "with His appearance in heaven to empathize that both the sacrifice and the appearance are ongoing".  See Hebrews 7:27 and 9:12 for example: in both verses Paul uses the phrase "once for all" to describe Christ's Sacrifice and his entering of the holy place in heaven.  In other words, these are ongoing, perpetual actions.  (And, interestingly, Greek has verb tenses that make this ongoing action explicit, but English does not.)

In the descriptions of the heavenly liturgy in Revelations (which never fail to put a lump in my throat), John calls Jesus the Lamb that "was slain from the beginning of the world" (13:8).  (In fact, Christ is referred to as the "Lamb" twenty-eight times in this book, emphasizing his propitiatory sacrifice.)  He also describes Him as a Lamb "standing, as though it had been slain".  But slain Lambs do not stand.  These verses are describing the Atonement as both eternal and timeless, always present before the Father.  Salza comments again about the original text: "The Greek is translated as 'having been standing' (histemi) and 'having been slain' (sphazo).  John's use of perfect participles to describe both Christ's standing and slain conditions indicate that Christ began to exhibit those conditions at a specific moment in the past, and that both conditions are ongoing."

The use of "altar" in both Hebrews and Revelations further underscores the sacrificial purpose of Christ's presence before the Father, for there would be no altar without a sacrifice.  Christ's bloodstained clothing is likewise that of a priest, for Christ is both High Priest and Victim of the Sacrifice.  And the vision of the Apocalypse is connected to the Eucharist by the reference to "hidden manna" - Christ likened His Body and Blood to the manna, it's Old Testament prefigurement, in the Gospel.  Salza: "The manna is 'hidden' by our senses but revealed by faith, which God desires from His New Covenant people."

Christ "entered once" into the holies (the Holy Place) with his "own blood" (Heb 9:12).  In these verses Paul sets up comparisons between the imperfect animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant and the single, perfect Sacrifice of the new.  The OT Levites took animals' blood into the earthly sanctuary while Christ does the same in the heavenly fulfillment of its purpose.  And, again, we must note that Paul speaks of the ongoing application of Christ's sacrifice, speaking in the present tense.

And then there is something extremely interesting, something that will take us ultimately where we are going: Paul reveals to us (in one of those details that it always popping out of the richness of Scripture, and so easily missed) that Christ's single Sacrifice does have a plural component.  Here is Heb 9:22-24:

And almost all things, according to the law, are cleansed with blood: and without shedding of blood there is no remission.  It is necessary therefore that the patterns of heavenly things should be cleansed with these: but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.  For Jesus is not entered into the holies made with hands, the patterns  of the true: but into heaven itself, that he may appear now in the presence of God for us.

"Better sacrifices"!  There is absolutely no doubt that Paul is speaking of the Sacrifice of the New Testament here, but there is only one.  How does the Sacrifice of Calvary have a plural dimension?  Paul's readers, the first Christians, who were instructed primarily by oral tradition as the Gospels and most of the epistles had not yet been written, much less copied and distributed, would know immediately that he was referring to the Sacrifice of the Mass, where Christ's Sacrifice is made really and truly present.  But Paul does explain the connection in his letter here as well.

Paul tells us that Jesus is the “mediator of a new covenant”.  Jesus used these words “New Covenant” only one time, when He instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper.  So, these terms (New Covenant, blood, and forgiveness of sin) appear in Scripture only in the Last Supper account as well as here: there can be no doubt of the direct connection.

As we have seen, Paul has also told us that Christ’s priesthood is modeled after Melchizedek’s, who offered bread and wine

 

And one final example that Scripture teaches that the blood of the Eucharist is really and truly Christ's Blood.  The phrase "the blood of the covenant [testament]" appears only twice in the New Testament: used once by Christ when He instituted the Eucharist and then again by Paul (who, again, received his instruction about the Eucharist from Jesus Christ directly) in Hebrews (13:20-21):

"And may the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great pastor of the sheep, our Lord Jesus Christ, in the blood of the everlasting testament [covenant], fit you in all goodness, that you may do his will; doing in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom is glory for ever and ever. Amen."

In the quote above Paul wishes that Christ's blood will "fit" [equip] us in goodness and cause us to do His will.  Only Christ's actual blood could be said to have such a power - not a symbol of it!  Thus, if "the blood of the Covenant" is not Christ's Blood, Paul has seriously misused Christ's words from the Last Supper.

"It Is Finished"

As I have alluded to above, there is another objection Protestant apologists raise to deny that Christ is perpetually offering sacrifice in heaven (as the Scriptures we've looked at clearly teach): they point to Christ's announcement from the Cross, before His death, that "It is finished".  Does this mean that at that point, of His death, that His work for eternity was completed?  Surely, His death on the Cross, and thus the fulfillment of certain prophecies, were "finished", but not necessarily His actions in eternity.

In John 17:4, Jesus says He has "finished" the work the Father sent him to do - before the Crucifixion.  It is never possible in the exegesis of Scripture to make assumptions about the meaning of a single word; the entire passage must be examined carefully using all available tools.  

Here is John 19:28-30, where "finished" is used twice - although Douay-Rheims actually uses accomplished and consummated, apparently a more faithful translation:

Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst.  Now there was a vessel set there full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar and hyssop, put it to his mouth.  Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said: It is consummated. And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost. 

I am once again going to quote John Salza for an analysis of the Greek text (which I am far from capable of):<quote snipped; stay tuned>.

And he continues with something fascinating: "What did Jesus really mean when He said 'I thirst'?  He was thirsting to satisfy the Father's wrath against our sins.  The wine Jesus receives is an allusion to the cup of God's wrath.  Jesus presents the cup at the Last Supper, acknowledges it is the Garden of Gethsemane, refuses to drink it while He carries His cross, until He finally completes His propitiatory sacrifice.  This continuity of the 'cup' from the Last Supper to the Cross underscores that they are one and the same sacrifice.

The Church Fathers And The Early Church

Here's a really great synopsis of what the major Fathers had to say about the Eucharist:

http://therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

This demonstrates that essentially every Father of the Faith that we have on record spoke of the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, usually as a given but occasionally in defense.  (Please do keep in mind that there was no Church but the Catholic Church at this time - outside of a few minor, heretical sects.)

The above document is very long; here are a couple other tidbits.  In AD 107, St. Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, wrote a great deal about the Eucharist as he "traveled westward to his martyrdom".  Ignatius' words should probably be given more weight than even the average Church Father - in his youth he was a disciple of the Apostle John himself.  If anyone would know Christ's true teachings on the Eucharist in the 1st century, it would be someone like Ignatius, who was taught by one who walked with the Lord.  Here's one quote:  "Take care, then, to have but one Eucharist.  For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup to show forth the unity of His blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, along with the priests and deacons, my fellow servants."

Here is how he combated the early heresy denying the presence of Christ in the Eucharist (which surfaced again at the Reformation, this time to stay): "From the Eucharist and prayer they hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ."  Who today among baptized Christians does not confess that the consecrated Eucharist is the flesh of the Savior?

Next, I'm going to quote passages from the Didache; this is a document written in Antioch between 50-100 AD that is attributed to the Apostles (its historocity is completely established).  It too shows that the Eucharist was the center of Christian worship, and that the structure of the Mass is extraordinarily similar to what we have today.  The quotes come from The Lamb's Supper; Hahn cites his references therein.  The following passage is the Eucharistic Prayer from the Didache, again, dating no later than 100 AD:

“As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and, gathered together, became one, so may Your Church be gathered together from the ends of the Earth into Your kingdom; for Yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ forever and ever.  But let no one east or drink of this Eucharistic thanksgiving, except those who have been baptized into the name of the Lord… Almighty Master, You created all things for Your name’s sake, and gave food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to You; but You bestowed upon us spiritual food and drink and eternal life through Your Son…Remember, Lord, Your Church.  Deliver it from all evil and perfect it in Your love; gather it together from the four winds – the Church that has been sanctified – into Your kingdom which You have prepared for it."

And, concerning another sacrament, the ordination of priests (Holy Orders): "Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist which is administered either by the bishop of by one to whom he has entrusted it."

Here is another very old passage describing an early Mass - this is attributed to the 2nd century - AD 155.  A man known as Justin who was the first Christian to make public many details of the faith wrote it.  This except is from a letter he wrote to the Roman emperor.  Again, its description of the Mass is uncannily similar to how we celebrate today:

"On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.  The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.  When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.  Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves... and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.  When the prayers are concluded we exchanges the kiss. Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.  He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name o the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.  When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying "Amen".  When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the eucharisted bread, wine, and water and take them to those who are absent."

(Note his use of the term "eucharisted", showing that he realized that a transformation (transubstantiation) of the bread takes place.)

Aquilina has this to say: "In both the Old and New Testaments, the faithful found intimations of the Eucharist.  The narrative of the Last Supper often appears in this context [early Mass], as do Jesus' Bread of Life discourse and the 11th chapter of 1 Corinthians.  But these 'literal' references, while foundational, were only the beginning.  Like Jesus and Paul, the early Christians also discerned a 'spiritual' sense of the Scriptures, a mystical meaning behind the literal sense of a story or precept.  Thus, while they [rightly] believe Jesus' multiplication of loaves was a true event, they also believed that he performed it as a sign prefiguring His Eucharist.  Indeed, that connection was so commonplace in the early Church that Origin, uncharacteristically, did not bother to explain it in his commentary on Mathew (10:25), but merely mentioned it in passing.

The early Christians used the same interpretive key on the wedding feast at Cana, where Jesus changed water into wine.  Likewise, when Jesus taught the Lord's Prayer, Tertullian, St. Cyprian, and St. Cyril understood the "daily bread" to be the Eucharist.

Such Eucharistic interpretations extended also to the Old Testament, where the Fathers found many "Types" that would be fulfilled in the antitype of the Mass.  A type is the foreshadowing of something greater; Adam, for example, is a type of Christ (Romans 5:14).  An antitype is the fulfillment of the thing foreshadowed: Christ is the antitype of Adam.  Read in the context of the Eucharist Psalm 23, with its "table" and anointing was, for Cyril of Jerusalem, a foreshadowing of the sacraments.  For Origen and many others, the story of the Passover and Exodus was rich in Eucharistic typology, as was the account of Melchizedek in Genesis 14.  The offering of fine flour by those cured of leprosy (Lev 14:10) was, according to Justin, a sign of the bread that would be offered for the forgiveness of sins.

The prophecy most often applied to the Eucharist was from Malachi.  "For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts, but you profane it" (Mal 1:10-12).  For the Fathers, the Eucharist was the Church's participation in the one sacrifice of Christ, the everlasting hope and extension of his love!  In the accounts of the Didache, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Cyril, and many others, the Mass is "the Sacrifice" offered by the Church - the Church that was itself the Body of Christ.  Christ, then, is the offering - the Passover Lamb - and Christ was the priest who made the offering.  The offering was perfect and the Priest was sinless, thus fulfilling in glory all the sacrifices of ancient Israel."

Such heady stuff, indeed!  The Catholic Church, from the time of the Apostles, is so alive, so real, so physical, that we've no doubt at all that Christ is with us, as He promised, until the end of the age.

"In every place incense is offered to my name" - how right the Fathers were, guided by the Spirit - in their time, the Mass was not yet said "in every place", but it was not long before the Church could indeed be found in every place in the world - every single nation.

Miraculous Evidence for Christ's Real Presence In The Eucharist

Take a look here:

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

and perhaps here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbg_dhI4XCs

Is this just too incredible to be true?  God couldn't work in our world like this?  And why could He not?  My future wife and I saw the Miraculous Host and Blood in Lanciano in May 2006 on our European pilgrimage.  I really can't describe what it was like to see in person. 

[Please do note that this would be rather impossible to fake.  It is well documented that it has existed throughout the centuries, unchanged.  This alone is a miracle - it is open to air and should have decayed to dust if it were any sort of natural material.  It is also certain that, even in modern times, science lacks the ability to create organic material such as this, genetically human and yet in the form of a Host.  Of course, there are always those that claim such inherently Catholic miracles are fraudulent.  These folks fall into two major categories, in my experience: religion-hating atheists and fundamentalist Christians.]

This site contains documentation on many other Eucharistic Miracles as well – there are dozens affirmed by the Church.  The Church realizes the miracles are not "proof" of anything, really - they are gifts from God to strengthen our faith in a world of doubt.  They are wonderful and beautiful and demonstrate the incredible truth and beauty of our faith.  But our faith does not come from them - it is the other way around; it is faith that allows one to believe in miracles.  This does not mean one can’t rationalize one's way around them if such is the goal, but to do so does require the abandonment of reason as well as faith.  These miracles are not only supported by reason; sound reason demands their acceptance as miraculous.

Conclusion

This essay has touched upon the richness of the Sacrament of the Eucharist in the Catholic faith.  The Eucharist, more than any other Sacrament, belies the persistent and pervasive "bias against the physical" that Catholic converts from Protestantism often comment on as being present in Protestantism (especially modern American Protestantism).  The notion that God can and does impart grace through the physical is antithetical to this mindset.  A word used by several of my favorite Catholic apologists (most of them former Protestants) to denote the opposite of this mindset is Incarnational.  For, says David Currie, when one learns to fully appreciate what our God becoming a human being with a human body really means, the notion that He would provide us his grace through physical things is not at all strange.

- Catholic teaching & understanding so much more beautiful and deep than P, which is staid, human, pathetic even.

- world is full of evil and we NEED to make reparation for our sin.  Protestant errors cost people their souls.

It is important to point out that the Catholic Church (along with the Orthodox) is the only place where a true Eucharist - the Real Presence of Christ - can be found.  Only the Catholic Church actually teaches the doctrine, as it has unchanged and unceasingly for nearly 2,000 years.  And the Church (again, along with the Orthodox bodies, who are in formal schism with the hierarchical Church Christ founded) is the only body where the chain of apostolic succession remains valid: it takes a validly ordained priest to perform consecration.  In fact, due to the lack a valid priesthood, savvy Protestants are aware that a valid Eucharist is not possible within their worship structure, even if they would believe in the Real Presence, and it could be said that this may be another reason why their most committed apologists spend so much time attacking the Catholic teaching.

- It's a matter of faith; every Christian must examine the evidence and either accept or prove why they shouldn’t.  No excuse for not thirsting for truth.  The lukewarm are spit out.

He promised us he would be with us, and He is, in a real, direct, and physical way, "until the end of the age".

References:

Salza, John, The Biblical Basis for the Eucharist, Our Sunday Visitor, 2008.

Aquilina, Mike, The Mass of the Early Christians, Our Sunday Visitor, 2001.

Hahn, Scott, The Lamb's Supper, Doubleday, 1999.

Jurgens, William A, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Liturgical Press, 1980.



TOPICS: Catholic; History; Ministry/Outreach; Worship
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; eucharist; holycommunion; john6
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To: daniel1212; boatbums; All

The “All;” I am addressing are those who say no to the RCC.

I keep sharing current private revelation because divine
events are close. The Protestant messages are saying the same but not as explicit as the Catholic because of our pride.

It’s interesting, a current Protestant messenger, Glynda Lomax, her messages are being posted on Catholic sites. I wish non-Catholic Christians would be as open.

Whhhoooa. True repentance and confession of your sins to
God for the life of your soul~! The reason Our Lord established the Sacrament of Confession (John 20:23).

Right now, non-Catholic Christians, examine your life, from the heart, with true contrition repent and confess your serious (mortal) sins to God.

OSAS and some non-Catholic’s misunderstanding of redemption, believing the “Jesus did it All on the Cross” atonement business...are not true. Our Lord reminds us here He is perfectly just. Do you see, reparation is made with “consequences” here on earth and if not completed (there is more, God forgives us when we confess our sins, yes), if not in this life, our reparation, our purgation is completed in Purgatory.

Read Glynda’s latest...

Tuesday, August 21, 2012

All Sin Comes With A Price

My Word is truth, though many refuse the truths it offers them. My Holy Word contains the power to set men free from their sins, the power to move any mountain, to clear any path.

My people often neglect to study My Word and learn of its truths and in times soon coming, this shall lead to their sudden destruction, for no man can stand before My Judgments.

Many are deceived into thinking sin no longer counts, that it no longer matters to Me, but it has always mattered. My Son died for sin because it mattered. He died to set men free from it, not to leave them free to do it more.

ALL sin comes with a price. There is no sin that does not bring a consequence into your life, though at first you may not see it. As the cup of your sins becomes full, that consequence must be meted out, for I am a Holy and Righteous Judge and I will have a holy and spotless bride for My Son.

For those who repent, the consequences will be less. For those who do not even try to stop sinning, they shall be very grave. But be not deceived, whatsoever a man sows, he shall also reap.

Sin is grievous in My eyes and should not be found among those sworn to serve Me. You are coming into a fierce and evil time and you cannot stand before your enemies without My power and My truth. Those who live sinful lives will not walk in My power and will not be able to stand.

If you turn now from your sins, you will have help in that time. If you do not turn from them, grave consequences await you, My children, which you shall not enjoy. For some of you, I shall expose your sins to others. Some of you shall reap through diseases, financial lack and loss of relationships.

Your choices now determine the ease of your path later. In My great mercy, I have warned you that you may turn from the destructive path in time, but you must want to turn from it.
Choose you this day whom you will serve.

Each time temptation calls, you are choosing. Be wise, My children, be vigilant. For the enemy of your souls seeks to devour you and all you have.

Will you let him?

John 17:17: Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

http://www.wingsofprophecy.blogspot.com/


201 posted on 08/22/2012 12:59:38 PM PDT by stpio
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To: PeevedPatriot

I wish you wouldn’t leave, it’s less mean spirited when you
post, you have a way...

It is the difference between our understanding, I thought
and put in caps Catholic things Daniel stated while he
defended Sola Fide. The heresy “Faith Alone” is a tough one to eliminate.

I stay because the longer we talk, the more non-Catholics will recall when the Warning happens. The Warning could happen next year. I shared this writing on Sola Fide last week. Martin Luther’s “man is completely depraved” heresy doesn’t help either.

~ ~ ~

http://www.catholicnick.blogspot.com/

an excerpt:

Monday, August 6, 2012

The second most important passage in Protestantism (Romans 4:5)

Following closely behind 2nd Timothy 3:16-17 (which I address here), the second most important passage of Scripture for Protestants is Romans 4:5, especially the part that says God “justifies the ungodly”. In the Protestant mind, Paul’s chief concern in life is how a holy God is able to declare an unrighteous person to be righteous, without violating His justice. This mindset first originated with Luther, who struggled to explain and understand how he, being a rotten sinner, could stand before an all-holy God and yet be found acceptable. The “solution” to this dilemma is what Luther and Protestants think is the heart of the Gospel: that God formulated an ingenious legal scheme, through Jesus Christ, which made it possible for God to declare the unrighteous person to be righteous and thus justify them, all without violating his holiness, justice, and integrity. This mentality has taken over the minds of most Protestants throughout history, and is perpetuated through the mistaken appeal to Romans 4:5.

Protestants begin by (rightly) recognizing that it is an abomination to declare someone righteous who is in fact unrighteous. For a secular judge to do such a thing is a serious injustice, and there’s no way God could do such an unjust thing, either. And yet, Romans 4:5 says God does the very thing He shouldn’t be doing, God “justifies the ungodly”. Looking at this conundrum, Protestants get to work trying to find an explanation for how God could do such a thing and not violate his Holiness. The “solution” they come up with (thinking this is in fact Paul’s reasoning as well) is that God isn’t declaring the unrighteous to be righteous out of thin air, but rather God is providing a basis to do so through the work of Jesus (citing Romans 3:21-26). They believe the sinners guilt gets imputed to Christ’s account and Christ’s perfect righteousness gets imputed to the sinner’s account, so God can now look at the sinner’s “criminal record” and see that not only has the punishment they deserve been satisfied, but the requirements of living a perfectly righteous life has been satisfied as well. Thus, God isn’t violating His holiness at all when he declares the unrighteous to be righteous, in fact He’s upholding His perfect standards. This is what Protestants think is “the Gospel”.

This is where the faith versus works dichotomy then gets introduced: Protestants think (quite reasonably) that since we are unrighteous, all of our works are tainted by sin, and thus can have no place at all in justification. Instead, it can and must be all about Christ’s work imputed to our account. This means that anyone at all attempting to introduce works into the salvation ‘equation’ is not only committing a serious abomination (by trying to get God to accept our imperfect works as righteousness), this person is also seriously deluded by not recognizing they are a miserable sinner with nothing but naked guilt standing before God’s tribunal. This is why Protestants begin all their talks on the “Gospel” with an appeal to truly recognize you’re a broken and miserable sinner who must look elsewhere, namely Christ alone, for your salvation...


202 posted on 08/22/2012 1:25:31 PM PDT by stpio
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To: PeevedPatriot
Pray tell, boatbums, which protestant belief have I misrepresented? Not which have I disagreed with, but which protestant position have I distorted? Not which Catholic position I have defended in way you disagree with. I'd like to know which Protestant position you think I deliberately misstated.

It's easy, go back to your post that I responded to. It's #179. You said:

In the church in which I was raised, there was a big disconnect between many elements of the Old Testament and the New. And as I recall, it was the same in other Protestant churches I attended with friends and relatives. The concept of the Lord's Supper as sacrifice wasn't part of our thinking. And one reason Catholicism was poorly understood was that we didn't understand the Jewish roots of Catholic worship. This is one reason I so appreciate that there is an OT & NT reading and psalm at every Mass. Reading the OT as a type of the NT wasn't the lens with which we read our Bibles as Protestants. So it's no wonder we talk past each other. I still get amazed at Mass sometimes when I hear something from the OT that fits perfectly with the NT but I never put the link together before despite being familiar with both passages.

Because EVERY Protestant church that I have attended certainly honored the Old Testament, related the connection and fulfillment in the New Testament and preached the WHOLE council of God. I went to a Bible college and EVERY book of the Bible was studied, every word, sentence, paragraph and the connection to what was done in the life of Jesus Christ and the early church. How you described your experience and how Catholics seem to like to use to denigrate the Protestant churches as ignorant and ill-informed, I guess it goes along with that air of superiority that gets voiced here almost without fail.

As far as giving you a "gotcha" question, I wasn't. I have asked it of several professed ex-Protestants. I cannot imagine returning to a religion that teaches no one can KNOW they have everlasting life - in fact many Catholics here call such an assurance a "sin of presumption" or a "heresy". You say that you know you are saved by Christ's sacrifice for you, and I am, frankly, glad to hear it. How do you deal with those that insist you can't? How do you answer those who declare that we will only know we are saved when we face the judgment at the end of time and then only if we have done enough good works "in cooperation with God's grace" and don't have any "mortal sins" on our souls?

I also rest confidently in God's wondrous mercy and grace and I have the Word of God that assures me that I HAVE, right now, everlasting life through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone. I know that my salvation is NOT based on what I do for God but what He has done for me.

203 posted on 08/22/2012 3:17:36 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: daniel1212
Thanks for your prior informative posts.

"“Sola fide” does not mean an inert faith is salvific, but that it is precisely the faith that is behind works that is counted for righteousness, (Rm. 5:5,10,11), “God “purifying their heart by faith,” (Acts 15:9) which manifest confirming confession in turn justifies the person as having true faith. (Rm. 10:9,10)

Faith is belief in what someone says on grounds of trust in that person and not on direct evidence that would support the claim. In order to make decisions regarding faith, one must have and hold prior valued concepts and other values, which the person uses as reference for motivational and other decision making purposes. Those valued references and motivations must be used to drive works and must come prior to ones decision to have faith. No one can choose to believe something if they have no priors. Their values must come first and chosen of their own free will.

God is not a puppeteer. Faith is not some gift from God that consists of some magical mind infusion. Faith is a decision which is a work and is based on works and the gifts given in Gen 1:26-27 and from His own teachings done in person. Jesus is the God of the OT. The God of the OT taught who He was in Person. Jesus equates 2 Persons of the Trinity, indicating that the concepts and values presented by Jesus are the Father's in John 6:44, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

The draw is not some mysterious and unfathomable mind infusion, it is the finding by one's own analysis and decisions, based on one's prior values that the concepts and values presented by Jesus are something to be incorporated in one's own mind as fundamental values. That does not mean one can not have a change of heart; one can. A change of heart indicates that one has decided, still based on priors, that a new order, or set of values should be incorporated into one's motivations and references.

What God is saying in John 6:44 is that those concepts and values are what He holds and values and those that have faith recognize that. They can only choose to believe if they themselves have chosen to build a similar value system, however different it might be. The key point to note is that, their hearts were in it. That is why they would never speak against the Holy Spirit, but might say something against bleeding bread, grace through nibbling on toes and fingers and other nonsense. If those that believe in later are saved, so are those w/o faith such as, but not limited to agnostics, Jews, stone age folks, and even atheists per Matt 12:32. God said, Matthew 12:7, "If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent." Sola Fide has the above condemned, because the did not believe something someone told them and they themselves did not know that the God they purport to believe in has rendered them innocent already. Not by magic, but through forgiveness.

204 posted on 08/22/2012 4:20:09 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: boatbums; PeevedPatriot; Salvation

Dear bb and PP (I’m aware that you have left the thread, PP, but I hope you get this, anyway):

boatbums: “I went to a Bible college——”

I didn’t even go college. We were too poor. I had received a scholarship when I graduated from high school, but still had to pay train fare (to the designated liberal arts college of my scholarship) to get there and to buy books and cover whatever the tuition didn’t pay for. I tried working two jobs for nine months to cover those expenses, but then realized that I couldn’t keep that up and even if I could, it would take me 8 years instead of 4 to get my degree.

So I had to go to work.

And I decided to become Catholic and then I met my husband.

Instead of studying “EVERY book of the Bible”, I married a great man. We had 6 children and I spent the rest of my life being the Martha of the Bible....pots and pans and diapers and home work and Little League games and presiding over driving lessons and dating rules.

Our family prayed together.

But I also chose to be the “Mary” of the Bible as well.

For most of my married life I was able to attend Mass daily.(my “youngest” is now 46)

Mass was my Bible school. Year after year I sat in the pew and heard the Mass reading of the day (which one can now easily see as Salvation posts it each day on this forum).

The “study” of those Scripture readings that I received were the homilies given by the priest offering the daily Mass.

BTW, in all those years I NEVER heard a homily in which Protestant churches were belittled or denigrated. Instead we were being challenged to be better Catholics.

The homilies were always about the practical application of the Scriptures into our daily lives.

And I was able to first hear and then receive-—those of us there “recognized Him in the breaking of the bread.” (Luke) I was able to both receive the Lord and at the same time offer myself to Him. His holy words to me (and those people there with me) were not studied as much as breathed in, ingested, implanted in my soul. I can’t say that I know “chapter and verse”——but I have intimate knowledge of God’s Scripture that has come to me day after day after day at Mass, all these years.

Because the doors to my parish church were always open, I was able to go there at any time of the day to pray, as many people did-—and still do.

Our children grew up as babies in our arms getting nothing more out of Mass than looking up at the beautiful stained glass windows depicting some signal moment in Jesus’ life among us. They had a visual catechesis even before they could read or write. The “smells and bells”, so often made fun of, were the affective domain of their learning process before the beginning of their cognitive domain development.

I learned Scripture because it was being imprinted upon my heart and to this day, the happenings of my daily life and events will bring to my mind and to my lips, one beautiful passage after the other.

boatbums:”How you described your experience and how Catholics seem to like to use to denigrate the Protestant churches as ignorant and ill-formed. I guess it goes along with that air of superiority that gets voiced here almost without fail.”

bb, your homepage has a quite a bit to say about your “experiences” in leaving the Catholic church. Reading it, I can get the impression that you may certainly think Catholics are “ill-informed”-—and even malformed.

Reading the posts on this forum, I have seen that an “air of superiority” can show up on both “sides.”

Experiences mean something. They are often true touchstones in our lives. On this forum they may be perceived as “anecdotal”, but that doesn’t change the reality of experience.

When I was a teenager, I lived just a block away from a cathedral in the city where I lived at the time. I knew it was always open, so I used to love to stop in there whenever I felt a need to find quiet and to think. I always wondered why I felt such peace there, and would “linger for a while”.

Only later, in my catechumen class did I know about the Real Presence.

boatbums: “I also rest confidently in God’s wondrous mercy and grace”......

So do I. And I express it vocally and openly in every Mass I attend.

boatbums: “I know that my salvation is NOT based on what I do for God but what He has done for me.”

I also believe that.

I also believe that Christ will come to get his Bride the Church. And those in the bridal procession on their way to the house of the Groom are admonished to keep their lamps filled with oil. They are doing something and going somewhere.

St. Paul tells us he is on a race to the finish line. He is doing something and going somewhere.

We are in a heavenly relationship where we not only fully receive but Our Lord Jesus wants us also to fully give—whatever it is that we have to give in the life He sustains in us day-by-day.

We can even give ourselves to Him in our illness, as I watched my husband do in the long months of hospice.

This is the reciprocal love that we are called to—the wedded love of bride and groom— and He reminded us in parable that we must not be off-duty and found not “working” when He comes as Master and King.

I feel a certain regret with many things that are posted here which so often seem accusative, scolding, and as my Alabama-bred granddaughter says “off-putting”.

“Some of us have not much time to love. Remember once more: that this is a matter of life or death. I cannot help speaking urgently...for myself, for yourselves. It is better not to live than not to love. Love is like light....take a beam of light and pass it through a crystal prism...the prism is broken up into component colors. St. Paul passes this thing—love—though the magnificent prism of his inspired intellect and it comes out..broken into its elements.
Patience...love suffereth long
Kindness...and is kind
Humility..love is not puffed up
Courtesy...does not behave itself unseemly
Good temper...is not provoked”

From my Protestant mother’s little book: Henry Drummond’s “The Greatest Thing in the World”

We who call ourselves by the name Christian are on a great journey, a great bridal procession to the house of the Groom:—whether we have just gotten up from our fall on the road to Damascus, or are crying out “To whom shall I go?”_or “Lord, that I may see”...or are jumping in the water with Peter crying out “It is the Lord!”


205 posted on 08/22/2012 4:59:01 PM PDT by Running On Empty (The three sorriest words: "It's too late")
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To: Salvation
"Christ was not speaking in a metaphor or allegory here."

I think the thing that bothers me the most about some of the responses on this thread is that for those of us who have experienced the overwhelming joy associated with the Real Presence the suggestion that we did not witness what we witnessed and did not experience what we experienced is beyond preposterous. We are also told that we as Catholics do and cannot think if we accept Church teachings on this. I can't see this as anything other than a finessed way of calling us liars and idiots.

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." - John 15:18

Peace be with you

206 posted on 08/22/2012 7:44:07 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law
That is a categorically impossible accusation because it implies that there is one "Protestant Biblical teaching" when in fact there are over 30,000 versions of Protestant teachings, each differing from the other 29,000+ on some point of doctrine important enough to cause a schism.

Careful, you're bringing out your desperation "sticks" again. I'll post this again for probably the hundredth time now - even your own Catholic apologists are warning about making such a ridiculous claim, it's number 1:

Unsound Sticks, or, Arguments Catholics Shouldn't Use:

    1. Alleging that there are 33,000 Protestant denominations. This tally comes from the 2001 World Christian Encyclopedia, and it includes all denominations and paradenominations which self-identify as Christian, including Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Old Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Gnostics, Bogomils, etc. And even so, the number is too high. The World Christian Encyclopedia artificially inflates the number of Catholic "denominations" by counting Eastern Churches in communion with Rome as separate denominations. It likewise inflates the number of Eastern Orthodox "denominations" by counting Churches in communion with each other as distinct.

    This reference lists 8,973 denominations under the heading "Protestant," and 22,146 more under the heading "Independent." Some, but not all, of the "independent" denominations may justly be described as Protestant. Still, these numbers may be inflated similarly to the numbers for Catholics and Orthodox. Suffice it to say that there are thousands of Protestant denominations.

    Moreover, even if we could arrive at an accurate tally for Protestant denominations (20,000?), we still could not blame the whole of that number on Sola Scriptura. Some of these churches share substantial unity in faith, even if they are juridically independent (perhaps due to geography). And much of the disunity of faith within Protestantism, at least in the developed world, stems from efforts to subordinate the authority of Scripture (e.g., to various sexual perversions). In reality, if every Protestant denomination were serious and consistent in affirming and applying the rule of Sola Scriptura, the spectrum of Protestant belief would be significantly narrower. It bears emphasizing: the only thing for which we can directly blame Sola Scriptura is the extent to which it fails to provide unity in true faith and morals to those who sincerely adhere to it, e.g., "orthodox" Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals, Campbellites, etc.

Lest you forget, the Reformation doctrines were more catholic/orthodox than the Roman Catholic ones had become. Plus, we already know that "unity" within the Roman Catholic Church is a facade. The unity of faith has ALWAYS been about the central tenets of the Christian faith - of which the Apostles' Creed is a good summary. These days, there are numerous denominations that, though they call themselves Christian (i.e.; Mormons and JWs), do NOT hold to these main tenets and there are also numerous "Catholic" ones that don't hold to them either. When I speak about the "Protestant" Biblical teachings, I mean those very same tenets which the Reformers as well as the early centuries of the Christian faith community held and ALL of them can be found in Holy Scripture. These are what set apart true churches of Christ and the universal Body of Christ of which are many members. God knows His own and His own hear HIS voice.

207 posted on 08/22/2012 10:37:53 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Running On Empty
bb, your homepage has a quite a bit to say about your “experiences” in leaving the Catholic church. Reading it, I can get the impression that you may certainly think Catholics are “ill-informed”-—and even malformed.

I don't know who's Home Page you read, but mine says NOTHING about my experiences leaving the Catholic Church nor is there anything on it that says a word about Catholics and their knowledge. Show me where I said any of that on my homepage.

Thank you for your other comments, anyway. I went to Bible College and paid my OWN way through taking 5 1/2 years to get my four year degree - some years working three jobs. I knew that it was God calling me to do this and I have never regretted a day. One of the main reasons why I went was because I didn't want to have to rely on pastors or priests to tell me what the Bible said, I wanted to learn it for myself. It gave me a sure foundation in my faith and for that I am eternally grateful.

My motivation has been to take what God taught me through His word and help others to learn it as well. All these years later, I am STILL learning and it never gets mundane (well, except all the "begats", maybe, but even some of them are informative). We will all be at a stage in our lives as you find yourself in now - if we're blessed to live that long, and I know what a tremendous comfort it is to know what and who you know.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (I John 5:20)

Blessings to you, ROE.

208 posted on 08/22/2012 11:52:31 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

I most certainly owe you an apology.

I failed to do my homework.

Yes, indeed, I am growing old.

I had your homepage confused with the homepage of someone else....who I shall not name here.

At least, I didn’t err altogether...in that I am aware of your story about leaving the Catholic church.

I am forever grateful that I am a Catholic...still able to go to daily Mass. I am blessed.

God is love.

May He bless us all.


209 posted on 08/23/2012 5:59:32 AM PDT by Running On Empty (The three sorriest words: "It's too late")
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To: boatbums
"Careful, you're bringing out your desperation "sticks" again."

A deflection, wrapped in a dubious appeal to authority, is not a sign of my desperation, but yours. Do you seriously think anyone believes you frequent and read the entire content of sites like Pugio Fidei? Would you rather I had said 20,000 +/- 15,000, or the more precise 8,973 number given in the Pugio Fidei site from 11 years, and several generations of Protestantism ago?

Whether the correct number is 33,000 or 33, there is no singular Protestant teaching as you implied. Not even Sola Scriptura is universally accepted throughout the theological hash that calls itself Protestant. And before you point to the harmony of any collection of so-called Reformers remember that the Fathers of the Reformation spent a good deal of their time energies condemning, trying and executing each other in competition for the power, prestige and wealth left in the wake of the local destruction of the Church.

I am not going to discuss and will not debate the cobbled together collection of cut and pasted references you post in lieu of the particular nomenclature of your heresy dejour. I am not impressed by a “bible college” education either. Many of the Bible college and Protestant seminary graduates I know were not only badly educated but the agenda and curricula of their schools have actually left them maleducated. I will say this; I know quite a number who have converted to Catholicism. What they universally share is a gratitude and love of the denomination that could take them only so far. That is considerably different that the morbid hatred of the Church that ex-Catholics spew on these threads as though hatred of the Catholic Church is a Christian virtue and fruit of their newly found self-declared Salvation.

Peace be with you

210 posted on 08/23/2012 9:54:11 AM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: stpio; boatbums; BlueDragon; Springfield Reformer

>>”Daniel, no one taught “Faith Alone” until Martin Luther”<<

That, along with well as your idea that sola fide sanctions a kind of faith as being salvific though it does not produce works, given opportunity, is another regretful display of your ignorance. Which is convenient in desiring to defend Rome and which will remain if you continue to refuse to be instructed by that which opposes you.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/justification/the-early-church-and-justification-compiled-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/

http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2011/07/justification-by-faith-alone.html

>> “It’s not “Faith Alone.” You’re becoming Roman Catholic<<”

Then so was Luther. Imagining that affirming works means one is growing closer to Rome (and which effects less commitment) is consistent with your imaginative prophecies. Once again, you have marginalized yourself as one not worthy of dialog. Bye.


211 posted on 08/23/2012 1:50:10 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute actual sinner, + trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: PeevedPatriot; boatbums; BlueDragon; Springfield Reformer

If you understand the Catholic concept of grace as God sharing his very self, that he shares his very own LIFE with us, then yes, we are given Life in the Eucharist.

No, this would be valid if Eucharistic theology was Scriptural, which it is not, but the text says “no life in you,” not simply additional grace, and many RCs use it as supporting the necessity of the Eucharist as if for salvation. In contrast, John teaches that those who do not yet believe the gospel, and or deny that Christ is I AM, are dead in their sins, and shall die in their sins. , but are made alive by faith in Him. (Jn. 3:36; 8:24; Acts 15:8,9; Eph. 2:1)

I assume you're referring to "heos" in Greek, translated as "to" or "until," also used in 2 Sam 6:23...:

I referred to Mt. 1:25 even though "heos" sometimes, if rarely, may denote a terminus allowing for or indicating a change, but because while advocating a “plain meaning" literalism that would also literally turn John the Baptist into Elijah, etc., RCs fight tooth and nail to disallow the most natural meaning of heos in Mt. 1:25, as that is how it is almost always used, especially in the NT and in such a construction (i have done an extensive word study on this, examining the purported other uses, some of which are seen here).

Yet rather than objectively dealing with this and other texts which most naturally denote Mary as not being a perpetual virgin, which is not taught therein, and the Holy Spirit characteristically manifests such notable exceptions to the norm, RCs must utterly disallow this even as a possibility in order to support tradition that developed, and that also renders her sinless. Which has been and would be another thread.

I am grateful for having a magisterium competent to make Biblical interpretations that sync with oral teachings passed down through the ages.

We also affirm the magisterial office, but not as assuredly infallible, which Rome has infallibly declared she is (when speaking in accordance with her infallibly defined scope and content based criteria). And which office on one hand requires assent of faith to what she infallibly teaches, and yet on the other hand this still requires interpretation as to even how many things are infallibly taught, and which ones, and after, that, the meaning of both infallible and noninfallible teachings. And yet this also leaves you with multitudes of things you can disagree on, and great liberty to interpret the Bible in seeking to defend Rome.

And therein is the problem, as you are not allowed to objectively examine the Scriptures and be willing to go wherever the Truth leads, which is why souls as the Bereans examined the apostles preaching thereby, and thus Christianity began by dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses who also presumed to teach tradition of men as doctrines, and instead truth-seeking souls followed an Itinerant Preacher whose authority they rejected, but who established His claims upon Scriptural substantiation. Instead you are bound to defend whatever you think Rome authoritatively teaches (though this can vary among RCs).

"The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question...

“The reason of this stand of his is that, for him, there can be no two sides to a question which for him is settled; for him, there is no seeking after the truth: he possesses it in its fulness, as far as God and religion are concerned. His Church gives him all there is to be had; all else is counterfeit..

Who else can teach him religious truth when he believes that an infallible Church gives him God's word and interprets it in the true and only sense? — (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapters XIX, XXIII. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York; http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18438/18438-h/18438-h.htm )

“Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..”

“The Vicar of Christ is the Vicar of God; to us the voice of the Pope is the voice of God. This, too, is why Catholics would never dream of calling in question the utterance of a priest in expounding Christian doctrine according to the teaching of the Church;”

“He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.” Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means", (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 ; http://www.catholictradition.org/Tradition/faith2-10.htm)]

And at one time lay Catholics were forbidden to engage in debates such as this.

212 posted on 08/23/2012 1:52:44 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute actual sinner, + trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

...”another regretful display of your IGNORANCE.”

Imagining that AFFIRMING WORKS means one is growing closer to Rome (and which effects less commitment) is consistent with your IMAGINATIVE PROPHECIES. Once again, you have marginalized yourself as one not worthy of dialog. Bye.”

~ ~ ~

I’ve never called you ignorant, the rules, do not make it personal, say unkind things.

The heresies of Protestantism, they’re not true. A doer of righteousness involves “action”...a “work.” This pleases God very much. You can’t get to Heaven without “works”, it’s time to reject believing you can get there on the falsehood of “Faith Alone.”

Jesus is not returning soon to tell the world they are fine
to believe whatever they wish, why return, this is the state of belief now for the secular world and Protestantism.

Despise not prophecy, it’s written in Scripture, the prophets are listed second to the Apostles in the Bible. You do not like what the Protestant messages from Heaven are saying? Over and over Our Lord repeats in the Protestant messages to correct, Sola Fide is a lie. Prophecy makes explicit, God is going to bring Christianity into unity, a oneness of belief and it’s going happen in a miraculous way...”soon.”

Jesus keeps telling Protestants in their messages that He has more for them, a fullness of understanding, believe. Open your heart to the Real Presence. If you do this all your objections, misunderstandings about the faith will fall away.


213 posted on 08/23/2012 3:47:31 PM PDT by stpio (a)
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To: Natural Law
That is considerably different that the morbid hatred of the Church that ex-Catholics spew on these threads as though hatred of the Catholic Church is a Christian virtue and fruit of their newly found self-declared Salvation.

The only thing I hate is morbid, soul-destroying false doctrine and the evil Father of Lies who is behind it all. Is there a morbid hatred of Protestants and Non-Catholic Christians behind your own spewing?

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. (Romans 12:9)

214 posted on 08/23/2012 4:03:53 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: All

The arguing, objections have been going on since 1517. Instead, understand what the messages from Heaven are saying. Our Lord can’t directly say to Protestants, the Remnant is Roman Catholic. Why? They won’t believe but He can indirectly and He has for a long time.

There aren’t that many current prophets, do not reject them.
And proof the messages come from Heaven. We are limited on how we express ourselves but can you believe, Jesus has been saying the SAME THING for 14 years in the time I’ve read them. The divine plan hasn’t changed but every day God speaks through prophecy, explaining the same but never duplicating, only God can do this.

Read an excerpt from the latest to Protestant Elaine
Tavolacci. I typed in non-Christians.

ELAINE TAVOLACCI
Staten Island, NY

“The Awe Of God”

August 23, 2012

This morning as I was driving in my car playing worship music, I was suddenly caught up in a cloud of glory. I thought to myself, this is the “awe of God”. The presence of the Holy Spirit was so intense that I pulled my car over to the side of the road to record this incredible word that I received from the Lord.

The Lord says, I am about to visit My people in ways that will astound them. I am about to release My awe in your lives and MANIFEST MYSELF AMONG YOU IN WAYS THAT YOU HAVE NOT YET KNOWN. The level of My glory will even amaze many believers as well as the unbelievers. I will bring those of you who know Me to a GREATER level, and MULTITUDES WHO DON’T KNOW ME. (non-Christians) will also be swept into the kingdom. Shake off all spiritual lethargy and prepare your hearts for THIS SPIRITUAL AWAKENING. Throw off anything that would restrain you so that will not be hindered from receiving ALL that is available to you. Don’t allow old wine skins to get in the way of receiving the new wine that is being distributed. PREPARE YOURSELF FOR THE AWE THAT I AM ABOUT TO RELEASE. Listen for My voice. Those who are listening will recognize My voice throughout the daytime as well as during the night. I will speak in visions and dreams to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Allow Me to abide in your midst, walk with you and talk with you. A personal relationship with Me such as Enoch had is achievable. To be led by faith just as Abraham was is possible. To RECEIVE REVELATION AS MEN AND WOMEN OF OLD RECEIVED AS MEN AND WOMEN OF OLD RECEIVED IS AVAILABLE. This is a new season when you will no longer question Me, because you will see a greater dimension of My power. You will experience a GREATER LEVEL of miracles, signs and wonders in your midst. My prophets will speak My words with accuracy and authority to bring change, set free, deliver and as well as release creative miracles. ...

http://ft111.com/eagles.htm


215 posted on 08/23/2012 4:47:22 PM PDT by stpio
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To: boatbums; daniel1212
"The only thing I hate is morbid, soul-destroying false doctrine and the evil Father of Lies who is behind it all."

Amen!

Thankyou both for your many posts and the Spirit with which you post them and for caring about what the interpretation is rather than who's the interpretation is.

God bless

216 posted on 08/23/2012 5:09:34 PM PDT by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: boatbums; stpio; daniel1212
Back long enough to let you know, boatbums, I sincerely try NOT to make any generalizations, especially negative ones, about Protestants. Some of the people I love most in this world are Protestant :) It was as a Protestant that I learned to love scriptures and the Lord. I read the comments of mine that you bolded for my review. My intent was to portray MY experience as a Protestant in various Protestant settings, not to speak for Protestants in general. So please indulge me to rephrase, "that was not the lens with which I and other Protestants I spoke with or was instructed by viewed the Bible. The experience of other converts may have been different."

One thing further I'd like to say to you. I don't believe that to be a good Catholic I have to be antiProtestant. I have 3 Protestant clergy in the family and sometimes I'll listen to online sermons of the eldest. I'm usually impressed with his preaching. Some of the most sincere Christians I know are Protestants. I also know many Catholics who can zip through the Bible pretty well and put me to shame in their love of the Lord. I'm blessed to know good people in both camps, praise God. Perhaps in future you can give me the benefit of the doubt that I'm not trying to be uncharitable, rather chose my wording poorly.

How do you deal with those that insist you can't?

To be honest, you're the first to bring it up.

How do you answer those who declare that we will only know we are saved when we face the judgment at the end of time

I'm never in a position to have to give an answer like that. But to you I'll say that I believe what the Church teaches about sin. I'm confident to face my judgment if I haven't intentionally AND without repentence rejected Christ by choosing to act against him. That's really what mortal sin (1 Jn 5:17) is. It's when I choose to walk away from God and make an idol of something else. As long as I do my best to be faithful (Gal 5:6) through love, all's going to be well. God knows when I mess up out of weakness and when I mess up out of rebellious rejection. I have so much experience of God's mercy that I trust it without question. It sounds like you do too and I appreciate that we have that in common.

and then only if we have done enough good works "in cooperation with God's grace" and don't have any "mortal sins" on our souls?

We believe in conforming our conduct, not only to please God, but because we cannot know or carry out his will/plan for our lives if we refuse to live as he instructed us to live. Obedience is what I strive for (and fail to achieve), not good works. If my obedience results in a good work, that's great. The good came because I was obedient (or docile to the Holy Spirit) and Christ was able to work through me. So that good work was Christ's doing not mine; the glory and credit are his not mine. Think of Gal 2:20. The goal is to allow Christ to live and act through me, not to do my own good works on a brownie point system.

For sin to be mortal, I must be aware of it and purposefully choose it in defiance. The problem in mortal sin is the internal disposition that says "my way, not God's way. I choose me not God." I would expect some difficulties at judgment if I am persisting in an unreprentant mindset that says "me not God."

BTW, I'm not in the habit of discussing my confessions, but I will tell you this. Once when I had done some pretty bad things, the priest shocked me. After acknowledging the harm I'd done, he went on to suggest ways God could use each one of those situations for good. Like our merciful Jesus, he came up with an excuse for each of my misdeeds. Just like Jesus from the cross made an excuse ("for they know not what they do.") That priest was showing me the face of our merciful Jesus :) He showed me that Jesus knows if I am blatantly rejecting him out of rebellion or falling short out of weakness. I have no worries that Jesus doesn't understand my heart or the reasons for my actions. I have complete trust in his mercy. As Catholics, we strive for prayerful union with Christ, not to live by a list of do's or don'ts that will/won't get us into heaven.

Dang, I knew I couldn't write a short answer as I had hoped!

I wish you wouldn’t leave, it’s less mean spirited when you post, you have a way...

Stpio, thank you, but I take Jesus at his word (Mt 5:22) about the type of discourse we should have. If my comments inflame someone or I find myself responding less than charitably, then it's proper for me to withdraw and resume again another time on another thread.

We don't generally allow family members to berate each other in our homes. I think our heavenly Father expects even higher standards among his children. It's no wonder the atheists think we're fools when we can't live up to what we profess to believe.

Also an extended relative is ill and I have family coming in from out of state to make decisions about care. I would appreciate your prayers and thank you in advance.

daniel1212, I thank you for your response. I'd like to say just one thing briefly. You wrote, "And therein is the problem, as you are not allowed to objectively examine the Scriptures and be willing to go wherever the Truth leads,

Jesus told his apostles three times the night before he died that he would send the Spirit to guide them in the truth (Jn 14:17, 15:26, 16:13). Paul confirms that the Church is the bulwark of truth (1 Tim 3:15). I mean no disrepect when I say this, but I don't see Jesus telling me to go looking for truth on my own. I see him promising the Spirit to guide the Church in truth and giving me the choice to accept the shepherds (RCC) he's placed over me or not. I choose to accept them.

And to be clear, that last sentence wasn't an insult. Somewhere above I posted what the catechism says about Protestants not sinning for worship in their faith traditions. I didn't post that for the Protestants. I posted it as a reminder to the Catholics ;) You and I disagree about many things, but I respect your zeal and reverence for scripture.

Real life calls and so I truly must sign off for good this time. I really only wanted to clarify that I wasn't slamming Protestants and never meant to get so long-winded. Thanks again to all for the discussion. Peace be with you all.

217 posted on 08/23/2012 7:59:47 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot ("A wise man's heart inclines him toward the right, but a fool's heart toward the left."--Eccl 10:2)
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To: mitch5501

Thanks be to God.


218 posted on 08/24/2012 6:55:22 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute actual sinner, + trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Patrick1

Isn’t the greatest difference between Catholics and Protestants the belief that Catholics have to go through a human being to get to Christ>>>>

what human(s) might that be?


219 posted on 08/27/2012 1:37:03 PM PDT by Coleus
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To: Coleus

http://resources.sainteds.com/showmedia.asp?media=../sermons/homily/2012-08-19-Homily%20Fr%20Gary.mp3&ExtraInfo=0&BaseDir=../sermons/homily


220 posted on 08/27/2012 6:46:42 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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