Posted on 07/04/2012 2:04:01 PM PDT by Colofornian
The Mormon-churched owned Deseret Newspaper announced Tuesday (July 3) (for indirect link, see Deseret News Exclusive: ABC '20/20' special on 'Heaven' will include Mormon perspective [Surprises?]) that ABC's upcoming Friday Night re-airing of "Heaven: Where is it? How do we get there?" would include a new segment with Lds representative Elder William R. Walker, "a general authority who oversees the temple department, to New York City" based upon a "sit-down interview with Barbara Walters near the Manhattan Temple last month."
Per the Deseret News, "The 'Heaven' special originally aired back in December 2005 and featured interviews with religious leaders from virtually all of the leading world religions. But the LDS Church was not among those featured. With nine out of 10 Americans claiming to believe in heaven, the show was one of the most-watched programs in the history of network television. 'We felt the program was so good and so strong we wanted to rerun it,' Walters said. 'And with Gov. Romney running for president, we felt it was very important to include the Mormon point of view this time.'"
While the Deseret News claimed that "Elder Walker definitely delivered the Mormon point of view in a wide-ranging exchange with Walters that covered everything from what goes on in Mormon temples to the practice of baptizing for the dead to the concept of eternal marriage..." Barbara Walters undoubtedly missed...
Hence, these are included below for your inspection:
RANK |
SURPRISING MORMON AFTERLIFE BELIEF |
EXPLANATION/SOURCE |
|
| 10. | Upon death, ALL -- Mormon and non-Mormon alike -- enter a godless intermediate place called the "spirit world." | This Mormon "spirit world" is "the place of residence for all those who have died and are awaiting the resurrection and the inseparable connection of their spirits and bodies. Thus, it is not the place where God the Father, the resurrected Lord, and other resurrected beings dwell. Rather, it is an intermediate condition or state where people await the resurrection—a sphere where disembodied spirits live in one of several conditions according to what their mortal lives have merited." (Source: The Spirit World, Our Next Home -- official magazine of the Mormon church, published December of 1977 by Dale C. Mouritsen) Also: Note that where you live -- ghetto-wise in this "spirit world" -- depends upon mere merit. (See also #4 below for more on "merit" status) | |
| 9. | This Mormon 'spirit world' is actually tied to this earth, where Mormon "missionaries" earthlings die and then become Mormon "spirit missionaries" on the other side of death | The Mormon spirit world is "on this earth." Lds "prophet" Ezra Taft Benson declared that “the spirit world is not far away. Sometimes the veil between this life and the life beyond becomes very thin." (Source: The Spirit World, Our Next Home -- official magazine of the Mormon church, published December of 1977 by Dale C. Mouritsen). This Mormon "spirit world" is no place of rest as the Bible describes heaven. Yup, for Mormons "...the spirit world is the place where disembodied spirits go. It is a tangible, substantial sphere incorporated with our earth, the focal point of a massive missionary effort in which we share." (Source: The Spirit World, Our Next Home -- official magazine of the Mormon church, published December of 1977 by Dale C. Mouritsen). Thus, Lds get to continue to earn their way to heaven by trying to bump up others along the way -- becoming "saviors" in the process! See #8 for more on this! | |
| 8. | And where does Baptism of the dead intersect with the alleged activity of disembodied Mormon "spirit missionaries?" Those spirit missionaries are going to those in temporary spirit prison to tell them they've been proxy baptized, which, in turn fulfills the very purpose of EVERY Mormon coming to planet earth from the planet Kolob. And what was that purpose, per Lds third "prophet" John Taylor -- as repeated in an official LDS church book published in 2001? 'Twas simple: "We came here to be saviors. 'What, saviors?' 'Yes.' 'Why, we thought there was only one Savior.' 'Oh, yes, there a great many.'" | Source of Taylor quote: Deseret News, Feb. 11, 1873, as quoted in 2001 in the official Lds church book, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor, p. 187 (For similar such quotes that regard Mormons as competing "saviors" to Jesus Christ, see: Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others?) | |
| 7. | Mormon leaders tell us hell's going to be cancelled like some bad Fall TV program. Hence, Mormon baptism of the dead then becomes a sort of 'get out of hell' card (into a low-degree of heaven) -- like Monopoly's 'Get out of jail card.' The wicked go to "spirit prison," which is not eternal hell. | Mormon leaders tell us hell's going to "...hell...is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances for them that are performed." (Official Lds publication, True to the Faith, 2004, p. 81) Boy is that getting out of hell free or what? Or how about Doctrine & Covenants 19:16-18, which says that hell/outer darkness is for the few? Yet they are still "saved": "After suffering in full for their sins they will be allowed to inherit the lowest degree of glory which is the telestial kingdom. The hell in the spirit world will not continue forever." (Official Lds publication, Gospel Principles, p. 280) | |
| 6. | The Book of Mormon is actually closer to the Bible on describing the eternality of hell than current Mormon teachings!!! | * Helaman 6:28 and Moroni 8:13 in the Book of Mormon describe hell as being "everlasting" and "endless." * Mormon leaders, why does Mosiah 2:38-39 in the Book of Mormon say hell is a never-ending torment? An unquenchable fire? * Why does the Mormon book within the Book of Mormon describe a condition as a “misery that NEVER dies”??? (Mormon 8:38) * Why does Alma 42:16 in the Book of Mormon say that eternal punishment is as eternal as the life of the soul? [Since the life of the soul is NOT temporary, what implications does that leave?] * Why does Alma 34:32-35 in the Book of Mormon say there's no second chance: For behold THIS LIFE is the time for men to prepare to meet God...do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life...then cometh the night of darkness wherein THERE CAN BE NO LABOR PERFORMED. Ye CANNOT say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will reprent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye CANNOT say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. (I cited parts of vv. 32-34) [Please see also Alma 12:24 that says that "life is a time to prepare for eternal state after resurrection" -- not the after life!!!] * Why does both Mosiah 16:11 & 1 Nephi 15:35 in the Book of Mormon say there's only TWO destinations post-death (not a third called "spirit prison"). And the BoM knows only heaven & hell -- no temporary spirit prison (Mormn 9:23; Ether 4:18; Hel. 14:18-19; Alma 3:26; Alma 40:26; 2 Nephi 2:28-29; 2 Nephi 9:16; Alma 41:4; 3 Nephi 27:11,17; 2 Nephi 28:21-22). * Very early in Joseph Smith's theology, Joseph did an "about face" on the eternality of hell and tried to claim that hell was described as "eternal" because God was eternal; that hell was described as "everlasting" because God was everlasting. IOW, he tried to change it to an adjective description of God -- of the type of punishment. But we have other verses in the Book of Mormon -- like Helaman 7:16 -- where it just doesn't "work" as an adjective: "Yea, how could you have given way to the enticing of him who is seeking to hurl away your souls down to everlasting misery and endless wo." Is "wo" just a "type" of wo because of who issued it? Sorry...'tis quite plain -- and you can't play with words...Anybody speaking plain English would interpret the above as "without end." Don’t you get the feeling that Mormon leader propaganda has the effect that even their BoM verses are subject to scissors – being cut out – if it doesn’t fit with what their leaders say? | |
| 5. | "Eternal life" is redefined to be an exclusive term that applies to temple Mormons ONLY! "Eternal life" is thus reserved for legalistically abiding Mormons ONLY. "Eternal life" does NOT = ALL living forever with Heavenly Father; 'tis ONLY applies for those who EARN exaltation...and "exaltation" is a Mormon by-word for becoming a god!Hence, to the Mormon, resurrection alone does not = eternal life. | Yes, Mormons believe that just about all people become immortal due to the resurrection. But "eternal life" is ONLY for those who live in the presence of Heavenly Father -- and become "gods" themselves (what Mormons call "exaltation"...To Mormons, "exaltation" and "eternal life" are interchangeable terms...but "eternal life" and heaven-as-a-residence for non-Mormons are not interchangeable terms..."eternal life" is ONLY for Mormons! * ”Eternal life is a term which always means ‘exaltation,’ when used in the Scriptures (John 3:15; Romans 6:23; 1 John 1:2; 2 Nephi 2:28; D&C 5:22; 18:8; 131:5; 138:51; Moses 1:39).” (David R. Ridges, Mormon Beliefs and Doctrines Made Easier, p. 88) Sub-title: “WHAT IS EXALTATION? Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life that God lives.” (Older 1970s version, p. 289) * ”Exaltation is a synonym for eternal life. Exaltation comes only to those who inherit the highest degree within the celestial kingdom…it consists in the continuation of the family unit throughout eternity; it is the type of life that is lived by our Heavenly Father.” (Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the Doctrines and Covenants, 2:85) * “Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge, and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.” (Gospel Principles, 1997, p. 302) * “Eternal life…In fact…means exaltation. He who receives the greatest portion of eternal life becomes a God.” (Milton R. Hunter, an LDS Seventy, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 11) * ”Exaltation means godhood, creatorship. ‘As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 53) * “Exaltation is the greatest of all the gifts and attainments possible. It is available only in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom and is reserved for members of the Church of the Firstborn. This exalted status, called eternal life, is available to be received by a man and a wife. It means not only living in God’s presence, but receiving power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection.” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:479 Quote for resurrection alone not = 'eternal life': * “…resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God…we need His grace to purify and perfect us ‘after all we can do’ (2 Nephi 25:23).” (Truth to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, Intellectual Reserve, 2004, p. 77) | |
| 4. | Trusting in Jesus Christ and relating to Jesus Christ for the Mormon thereby only amounts to what your life MERITS. Yup. You're ONLY a cosmic Boy Scout! | The final quote in the previous row was: “…resurrection alone does not qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God…we need His grace to purify and perfect us ‘after all we can do’ (2 Nephi 25:23).” (Truth to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, Intellectual Reserve, 2004, p. 77) Hence -- for MORMONS -- heaven isn't a gift...it's based upon "all you can do" and merits: * Each of us has been sent to earth by our Heavenly Father to merit eternal life” (Lds apostle Robert D. Hales, “Personal Revelation: The Teachings and Examples of the Prophets,” Ensign (Conference Edition), Nov. 1985, p. 20) * “…immortality is to live forever in the resurrected state, and by the grace of God all men will gain this unending continuance of life. But ONLY THOSE who obey the fullness of the gospel law will inherit eternal life. (D&C 29:43-44)…it is the kind, status, type, and quality of life that God himself enjoys. Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation; they are sons of God, joint-heirs with Christ…they overcome all things, have all power, and receive the fullness of the Father. THEY ARE GODS.” McConkie, p. 237, 1979 ed. [My note: Of course, McConkie cites D&C 29:43-44…but these verses say no such thing…v. 43 actually says that ”immortality unto eternal life” is given to ”as many as would BELIEVE”…’shifty’ McConkie…trying to pull a rabbit when no hat exists] * “The…gift of eternal life…is conditional. In order to qualify, one must deny oneself of ungodliness and honor the ordinance and covenants of the temple.” (Lds apostle Russell M. Nelson, “Divine Love,” Ensign, Feb. 2003, p. 24 * "Very gladly would the Lord give to everyone eternal life, but since that blessing can come only on MERIT -- through the faithful performance of duty - ONLY those who are WORTHY shall receive it." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:5) These citations are outright heresy taught by heretics! If you don't believe Mormons teach you have to "work" for eternal life vs. Jesus giving it to us NOW in a relationship with Him that starts now, then may I suggest you first read John 17:3 -- and then compare to these above citations from Lds leaders! For another thread on this topic, please see: what qualifies people to live with heavenly father for all eternity? (MormonISM - open)
|
|
| 3. | If you qualify for Mormon full grown-up godhood status, you will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. Yup...temple Lds believe they will have the SAME creative power their god, who was once a man, had; and that they will receive prayers as well as worship, glory, adoration, etc. | Both the 2009 Lds Gospel Principles book -- see Exaltation (The Plan for Our Progression)-Mormon (OPEN)...and one who reaches out to Lds, Pastor Mark Cares, see “As man is God once was; as God is, man may become.” [Infamous couplet highlights Lds polytheism] ...highlight these five supposed "blessings" that temple Mormons ALONE are to receive: a. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62). (My note: And this is for TEMPLE Mormons only...which, right now, is only 15-20% of all Mormons!) b. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23). (My note: See McConkie quote above as well) c. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase. (My note: "Elder Walker" does discuss this on Barbara Walters' upcoming special...as Lds think this is some sort of trump card of their 'gospel' that's attractive) d. They will receive a fulness of joy. e. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20).” (Yup...temple Lds believe they will have the SAME creative power their god, who was once a man, had; will receive prayers; worship, glory, adoration, etc.) | |
| 2. | You -- if you're a tithing married Mormon in good standing ONLY with the Mormon church -- get to not only be a 'god' -- but a god of your own world!!!!! (This, of course, includes eternal physical sex with either your wife or wives in order to propagate that world with 'spirit children') | Some Mormons deny that Lds teach that you "get your own world as a god." For the scoop, see Mormon Professors Confuse Doctrine and Rumor (especially note post #5 of that thread) Here is a sample quotation from a Mormon "prophet": “To become like him we must have ALL the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an EARTH LIKE THIS ONE WE ARE ON and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and HAVE JURISDICTION OVER WORLDS, AND THESE WORLDS WILL BE PEOPLED BY OUR OWN OFFSPRING. WE WILL HAVE AN ENDLESS ETERNITY FOR THIS." Source: Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:48, as cited by The Mormon Church’s annual Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1978-79, p. 131 | |
| 1. | Mormon theology about heaven says it's a place -- at least for the 99% of people who would live there -- where Christians don't get to live with Heavenly Father forever!!!!! | When Mormons talk about eternal life & exaltation, they're not just talking about "heaven" What's the "rest of the story"? * Mormons believe that only their “Melchizedek priests” (D&C 76:57) are the ones eligible for “dwell[ing] in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.” (D&C 76:62) In the Mormon view of heaven, ONLY those entering into Mormon "covenants" and obeying fully Mormon laws get to live forever in God's presence: * Eternal life is living with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in the celestial kingdom. This blessing--which is also called exaltation--comes only to those who keep the commandments and make the necessary covenants (Source: Preparing for Exaltation Teacher's Manual, p. 4, 1998) * ”Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, where we will live in God’s presence and continue as families.” (same source, p. 52) * “’Eternal life’ is a higher state than immortality alone and means to live forever in a resurrected condition in the presence of God, and to become like God…Eternal life is exaltation into the type and quality of life that God lives. Receiving eternal life is conditional, predicated upon obedience to the fullness of gospel law and ordinances (D&C 29:43-44; 130:20-21). It requires voluntary obedience to all of the ordinances and principles of the gospel…continuing through…the covenants of the Endowment and marriage in the temple…” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:677-678) |
Ok?
Let's just all celebrate Independence day, stop trying to convert each other or justify our own individual religious beliefs (only GOD really KNOWS!) and then just reconsider in the morning the crucial task at hand in our beloved Constitutional Republic...
I did not realize this was the "religion forum", but nevertheless, it's good to discuss these things, and thanks for your patience, fellow FReepers!
Thank you for verifying my objections to your posts. Job well done.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Does this make the Chosen People super-duper self-righteous? Would a ‘non-believer’ be eligible for president to the people in this thread? Is the premiss here Romney is ineligible because he’s not a ‘real’ Christian?! Jeesh.... vote for Romney or the Republic dies. Find your totally awesome evangelical candidate (and please, not Suckabee) in 4 years...
Does this make the Chosen People super-duper self-righteous? Would a ‘non-believer’ be eligible for president to the people in this thread? Is the premiss here Romney is ineligible because he’s not a ‘real’ Christian?! Jeesh.... vote for Romney or the Republic dies. Find your totally awesome evangelical candidate (and please, not Suckabee) in 4 years...
Romney is a candidate and he is also a Bishop in his church. He is "fair game" on "open" RF threads.
If that "town square" style of religious debate offends you, then you should IGNORE "open" RF threads altogether and instead post to RF threads labeled "caucus" "ecumenical" "prayer" or "devotional."
If you do not wish to see RF posts, do NOT use the "everything" option on the Free Republic browse option list. Instead, browse by "News/Activism." When you log back in, the browse will reset to "everything" - so be sure to set it back to "News/Activism."
Click here for more guidelines to the Religion Forum.
Point taken. I suppose I don’t really care to discuss the theologies being parsed and analysed here... and I was emotionally on the side of the pro-Mormon-lifestyle post above, having roomed and served with damn fine Mormon midshipmen/officers/etc. I hereby rescind my playful interjection of Jewish Chosen-ness-equals-self-righteousness, I double my plea to hold noses and vote Romney, and the Suckabee thing, well... just find a good evangelical conservative and I’m on board.
Ok?
Apparently you do -- and, apparently, ONLY you!
"No one knows" the reality of God, you claim; yet, somehow, YOU have such an absolute, clear picture of God's fuzziness that you're able to preach and lecture the rest of us with the resoluteness of a fundamentalist!
You're lecturing us, in effect, saying: "The only absolute about God is that there aren't any absolutes about God. And I'm absolutely right on this to the exclusion of all other perceptions of God and His ways. Only my absolute picture of God's fuzziness is dead-on. So 'absolutes' about God just don't wash...except for mine, of course. I have perfect vision about who God isn't." Signed 88keys 3:16
If you were more humble about it, you'd just leave it at "I don't know" -- instead of presuming to tell THE ENTIRE WORLD who and what they don't know about God and His ways!
When you claim "No one knows," that in and of itself is a claim to omniscience about human thoughts about God...you're claiming that you've been able to scan humandom's entire minds and have ultimately determined that "no one knows." How do you know that "no one knows?" Why are you so authoritative in such a claim? Don't you see the utter gall in making such a claim on behalf of ALL mankind?
Why are YOU the ONLY one who is absolutely right on this?
(All it takes is for one person to know God's reality and way of salvation...and poof, there goes your claim to your absolute that "Thou shalt embrace 88keys 3:16 that thou shalt not know God's nature or His way of salvation.")
Did you realize that the word agnostic is etymologically rooted in the word "ignorance?" So, if you're claim to fame is "ignorance" about God -- agnosticism, who are you to lecture others on who God is (or isn't)? Since when is "ignorance" such a fountainhead of knowledge?
Furthermore, as I have shown above, you have refuted yourself! If "no one can know," that means "you" 88keys can't know," either with any degree of certainty whether anyone can know God and His way of salvation. And if you concede that 88keys doesn't know, per your absolute standard, that also means 88keys can quietly step down from his online pulpit and quit pontificating about God's supposed fuzziness!
No human can really define God, no human can know the true path to salvation, although many people and religious preachers think they can...it's a matter of personal faith and trust.
The word "Gospel" literally means "Good News." News. You don't wake up and either read a newspaper or online news content, and then say, "Well, nobody can know anything about that news," do you? Is the "news" we read a 100% mystery about reality and events and the like?
You don't claim that ALL intake of news is only accessible by "personal faith and trust," do you? If you're a juror in a local trial, is all testimony accepted only upon your "faith and trust" standard? Or can facts be determined based upon the evidence of eyewitness testimony?
My point here is that the resurrection of Jesus was a news event. He appeared to about 500 people post-death. That's 500 eye-witnesses. He didn't just resurrect himself spiritually -- as Jehovah's Witnesses claim -- and then have his disciples say, "Well, you'll just have to believe a religious document called the Bible if you want to believe Jesus was resurrected."
The resurrection of Jesus is rooted in history -- and Jesus' eyewitness testimony needs to be sifted thru as any juror would sift thru similar testimony in a court trial. What jurors do is hardly a "religious act of faith."
WRONG!!
Even with THIS thread title?
THE TOP TEN MOST SURPRISING 'MORMON TEACHINGS' ABOUT MORMON HEAVEN and AFTER-LIFE
Hello!
ELIGIBLE is NOT what we are talking about here.
YOU are most likely as 'eligible' as the next fellow!
Should folks who watch Jersey Shore and/or Big Brother and/or cage fighting be 'eligible to VOTE?
I’d vote for an ATHEIST as long as he (she?) didn’t claim to be a True Christian and send his (her?) minions after me for not being ‘tolerant’!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.