As Baptists Prepare to Meet, Calvinism Debate Shifts to Heresy Accusation

As Baptists Prepare to Meet, Calvinism Debate Shifts to Heresy Accusation Hundreds, including seminary presidents, have signed a statement on salvation criticized by both Reformed and Arminian theologians. Weston Gentry [ posted 6/18/2012 ] A statement by a non-Calvinist faction of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) has launched infighting within the nation's largest Protestant denomination, and tensions are expected to escalate Tuesday as church leaders descend on New Orleans.

To your post:

In other words, we expect God, as God, to be perfectly capable of being a clear communicator.

God is perfect, but man is not. Scripture does not make us all in perfect agreement with what it says. You and I are illustrating this.

This also illustrates the unworkability of sola scriptura - which even the reformers discovered at least as early as Luther's arguments with Zwingli.

Luther was appalled at those - practicing his sola scriptura - that arrived at a different view of scripture concerning the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. He wrote:

Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived.”

Sola scriptura is unscriptural and unworkable. It cannot be a dogmatic foundation for "One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Well, thank you. My language resources are a motley crew. In seminary I acquired Logos Bible software, which has Enhanced Strong’s, revising the Hebrew base using Brown, Driver, Briggs and the Greek base using the Thayer lexicon. There are also a number of words I just “know,” due to picking them up from the textbook in the study of the language itself. I can’t remember the textbook for the Hebrew, (Gesenius maybe?), but I used Machen and something else for the Greek. Long time ago now.

For base texts I like the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia for the Hebrew (with version 4.2 morph tags), and the Robinson-Pierpont Byzantine Greek with morph tags (majority text – no fan of the German school). I also use eSword, because they have many very good, old resources that are dirt cheap or free. I like John Gill’s commentary, Matthew Henry, and Robertson’s Word Pictures, where I get an enormous amount of help with the more controversial Greek issues.

But some things are just not controversial. The male pronoun referencing the Seed is blazing obvious in Genesis 3:15. Every first year Hebrew student uses the mnemonic “Hu is He and Hee is She.” Corny, but it works. It’s clear to any objective mind that whole “seed” thing went off the rails either on Jerome’s watch or afterward at the hand of some well-meaning copyist. And nobody I’ve run into in my studies would even begin to advance the idea that relatively modern words like the English “priest” can be safely attached to a primitive like presbuteros (“elder”), with the full modern meaning intact. That’s just begging for trouble.

Anyway, thanks for the insight. I’ll keep an eye on my lexicon usage. Nothing worse than a self-referential circle. Hint hint. :)

Peace,

No problem here either. If you like passion, you should try Luther’s “Bondage of the Will” some time. I could practically feel the sweat and spittle flying at me from that old German pulpit.

In other news, I am stuck for time, so my response to your latest may be a bit delayed. Just quickly, I checked out your “pasa graphe” point against AT Robertson and he says it could go either way. I’m not sure it matters to my argument, because I’ve premised the whole thing on the distinction between qualitative and quantitative, that is, each Scripture has these qualities, without addressing canon per se.

In any event, I’ll look at it some more when I’ve got time, if you don’t mind the delay. I’ve just got to get some billable hours in. If only I could figure out a way to make a living posting on FR. :)

Peace,

I remind again, that for Christians our closest image of God is Jesus Christ. If we wish to know God in our human terms...Your images seem to not wish to do this.

I will stand by the scriptures rather than simple conjecture.

But I would also suggust you're completely missing the point. God is represented through our Lord Jesus. And this God loves man. But men do not love God. What is being completely missed is how very wicked man is for if we truly love God we would keep His commandments. And they are NOT difficult to keep. We just want to make excuses for ourselves like, "Ah shucks, I'm not perfect". Well, no, that doesn't fly. This is our depravity showing and we might as well admit it.

If you really want to know what Jesus thought of us then follow what He stated about us:

Mat 7:11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Our Lord is exactly correct. We are evil. And we need to repent continuously. People have far too high of regards for how we are viewed by God.

“I labored long into the night, and am now operating on only a fraction of my usual sleep, just so I could provide you with a comprehensive response to each of the Scriptures you questioned, and in doing so I believe I have vindicated the KJV as a good, reliable translation.”

~ ~ ~

Hey friend, you do not reply specifically to most of what I do reply to you. And it’s no good to argue. One no reply from you, a fact, King James was a gravely sinful man who came against the Church because the Pope wouldn’t agree to his mortal sin. His 50 plus translators thought if you change two words, zap, there is no hierarchy, you get to decide.

What say you?

The KJV took from the Vulgate (changed, removed words to fit the new heresies) because the Latin Vulgate is the first. Will you agree, say “yes”, St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate is the first Bible?

So many times people have argued over various Scripture
verses and the footnotes in the Douay-Rheims have the
answers to those verses.

http://www.drbo.org/

I like we keep talking though...

let us stay friends please, call me, you will see better after the Great Warning, I am serious,

“Your work was not in vain and your love of the Word is evident. I read it and appreciate the effort you took.”

~ ~ ~

Imagine if our brothers and sisters in Christ would accept
the fullness, all God has revealed, they would die from
pure joy. It is dear, their love of the written Word.

I replied to a few comments SR returned with, he does not
wish to discuss why Our Lord would call His mother “woman”
repeatedly. It’s not anywhere else in Scripture, a son calling His mother “woman.” And another, where is the ministerial priesthood in Protestantism, maybe the reason the KJV uses “elder.” Two obvious changes from the original.

"I replied to a few comments SR returned with, he does not wish to discuss...."

SR in not evil, just errant. We must use the truth like a rope to lead him from the darkness, not like a whip to drive him or like bindings to constrain his faith.

Like us, Protestants have invested a great deal of their personal identity in their theology. We must have no doubt that they truly love seek God.

The Holy Spirit must create the reality of truth in their hearts before they can recognize it in their minds. We must be patient and supportive and not become yet one more obstacle to the truth and a reason to reject the Church.

Peace be with you.

A return to the subject of the thread. One message from
Heaven, from God the Father given today, shows Calvinism is false.

June 27, 2012

Ask For My Assistance
Children of Love,

I Am the Alpha and the Omega. I Am. Rejoice for the King of Kings desires to abide in you. I come to you in love. I come to you in hope. I invite you to open your hearts to Me now. Surrender to Me. Give Me permission to mold you into instruments of grace. I NEED PRAYER WARRIORS. I need you. As events occur all over the Earth, you must admit that MUCH PRAYER IS in fact NEEDED if things are to CHANGE. Hearts are indifferent to suffering, to loss, to destruction. Many things need to happen within the coming months, and I have begun to purify those I love so dearly in an effort to bring them back to Me. My Children, if you only knew what lies ahead, you would pray non stop, implore My mercy, and seek to find refuge in My loving arms. You make yourselves as Gods, and often think that I will not destroy My own creation. Wake up, My Little Ones, before it is really too late. Corruption, and sin have taken over the Earth. Innocence is sacrificed, and children suffer constantly. Abortion is readily accepted, encouraged. Millions of lives are snatched from My grasp by Satan, each day. Millions are aborted, and know premature deaths. Many of these children were destined for greatness, destined to heal your broken world. Who will replace them? No one. Who will develop the skills that I had hidden in their persons to be able to take on their lost mandates? Who will rise to the challenge, and ensure that their life missions are accomplished nevertheless? Wake up, Children! Time is of the essence. Your time is now very short. Many things are now completely out of your hands. It is too late to reverse years of damage, years of abuse, years of destruction. Only I can pull you from your lives of misery, and hardship. You can not do this on your own. RETURN TO ME. Know that My plan is perfect, and that My ways are glorious. Obey in all humility. See the mess that lies before you, and ask for My assistance. I Am, your Heavenly Father, desire to assist you on your path to holiness. Accept My role in your lives. Ponder these My words to you. I leave you My kiss of peace. Shalom

http://www.jabezinaction.blogspot.com/

"I posted quite a few of the many “errant” changes in the KJV Bible."

Many Protestants have been taught and accept as a matter of faith that major tenets of Catholicism are not simply errant but are truly evil. Unfortunately, that is the starting point for the development of much of their personal doctrines. Many will embrace or tolerate any heresy so long as the Church has spoken against it. It makes for very strange bedfellows in these threads.

I don't think that SR falls in that category. He/she seems genuinely scholarly and eager to continue to learn. I find that refreshing.

Peace be with you

“Many Protestants have been taught and accept as a matter of faith that major tenets of Catholicism are not simply errant but are truly evil. Unfortunately, that is the starting point for the development of much of their personal doctrines...

I don’t think that SR falls in that category.”...

~ ~ ~

Yes, SR will discuss. I noticed someone else in another thread was this way too.

NL, very good that you continue on sharing the faith. Me, I stay because I worry about the anti-Catholicism and the near future but if we keep discussing the faith, our differences and sharing prophecy, our brothers and sisters will recall.

The “grace” from prayers and sacrifices offered to change hearts is the repeated urgent request.

It’s really something, Protestant current messages from Heaven, they are speaking of the verses in Revelation 6, the Great Warning.

may the Two Hearts keep you safe,

Hi again. Didn’t mean to ignore you. I got home last night and quickly fell asleep. I don’t mind continuing to be friends. But I have a lot going on in my life, and I don’t have time for conversations that go around in infinite circles. This is not personal to you. I’ve just learned that life is short, and sometimes you have to agree to disagree and move on. I don’t know that we’re there yet. Just giving you my perspective.

Anyway, you said this:

“The KJV took from the Vulgate (changed, removed words to fit the new heresies) because the Latin Vulgate is the first. Will you agree, say “yes”, St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate is the first Bible?”

Well, what you’re saying is only partially true. I’m not accusing you of lying. I totally believe you are a good, sincere person. But you obviously have done little research into the history of the Biblical text. In short, no, the Vulgate was not the first “Bible.” It was certainly an early and important text, but the Vetus Latina was actually the first Latin translation. But the Church was using the Greek and Hebrew from the start, also the Septuagint. The Greek never even needed a translation, as the Bible, both OT and NT, was already in their native tongue. So it is patently against known history to say the Vulgate was the first Bible.

Anyway, gotta go. I totally missed your other post about James and faith versus works. It has an easy resolution, but my time here is limited, will get to it later. I looked throught all my pings from you and still didn’t see it. Don’t know what happened there.

Later,

“The Greek never even needed a translation, as the Bible, both OT and NT, was already in their native tongue. So it is patently against known history to say the Vulgate was the first Bible.”

~ ~ ~

Springfield R.,

You won’t even acknowledge where the Bible came from, instead, say the above...of course there are the original writings.

St. Jerome translated them into the common language of the time, Latin...the Vulgate. The Bible is a Catholic book.

You brought up a saint, St. Augustine and not a kind comment about him. You accept he existed, why not
come further and recognize his beliefs. I’ll share something he said:

St. Augustine, from Explanations on the Psalms, A.D. 392-418, [98, 9]:

“Unless he shall have eaten My flesh he shall not have eternal life. [John 6:54-55]’ [Some] understood this foolishly, and thought of it carnally, and supposed that the Lord was going to cut off some parts of His Body to give them ... But He instructed them, and said to them: `It is the spirit that gives life; but the flesh profits nothing: the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life’ [John 6:64]. Understand spiritually what I said. You are not to eat this Body which you see, nor to drink that Blood which which will be poured out by those who will crucify Me. I have commended to you a certain Sacrament; spiritually understood, it will give you life. And even if it is necessary that this be celebrated visibly, it must still be understood invisibly.”

True faith is believing something you can’t see. After the priest’s words of consecration the host becomes Our Lord, it’s supernatural. Why wouldn’t you desire this too? More Christians than not believe in the Real Presence. I don’t care if I am mocked for saying, Our Lord wants you to become Roman Catholic.

“The Greek never even needed a translation, as the Bible, both OT and NT, was already in their native tongue. So it is patently against known history to say the Vulgate was the first Bible.”

~ ~ ~

Springfield R.,

You won’t even acknowledge where the Bible came from, instead, say the above...of course there are the original writings.

St. Jerome translated them into the common language of the time, Latin...the Vulgate. The Bible is a Catholic book.

You brought up a saint, St. Augustine and not a kind comment about him. You accept he existed, why not
come further and recognize his beliefs. I’ll share something he said:

St. Augustine, from Explanations on the Psalms, A.D. 392-418, [98, 9]:

stpio, my friend, you must be very confused about what I said. I am truly sorry we are having such trouble. I did comment about Aquinas, but not Augustine. If you feel that is not true, please review my posts and point out to me where I mentioned Augustine. I am an old fellow with an imperfect memory and I am open to correction.

I would also pause here to also mention that my comments about Aquinas were very kind. He was a wise man, and is a respected authority in your denomination, and he gives credit to the power of reason as something God gave everybody by which to discern truth, even among those considered outsiders. This is a compliment both to God and to Aquinas, as I very much agree with him on that point. I am sorry you misunderstood me.

But as long as you mentioned Augustine, I also like him very well, especially in those areas where his teaching can be supported by Scripture. In particular, Calvin’s view of predestination owes a great deal to Augustine. They are very similar in their views.

As for our debate over the first Bibles, you are not really debating me. You are just talking at me. Let me give you an example by analogy.

You come to me saying “Microsoft made the first computer, and if you don’t believe it you are in serious error.”

I say to you, “No, there were earlier computers, many were made before there ever was a Microsoft.” And then I recite to you the 1822 invention of the Babbage Difference Engine, or the 1936 German Z1, or the British Colossus of 1943, or the American Eniac of 1946.

You respond, “You are denying the origins of computers, the first computer was definitely invented by Microsoft.”

I scratch my head in amazement, because I had an uncle who actually worked with the old computers. I know they are as real as well as I know my own name.

Microsoft didn’t invent the computer, and the Roman Catholic Church, in terms of what makes it different from other Christian denominations, did not invent the Bible, and Jerome did not write the first Latin translation. These are facts of history which, if you were sincerely interested in knowing about that history, you could look them up for yourself. And I think you should.

That way, if you don’t like how I’m explaining that history, you would be able to actually show me where I am wrong. Perhaps you can show me that Microsoft actually existed in its full corporate identity in 1822 and Babbage was a Microsoft employee. I’d say wonderful, never knew that before, and thank you.

But instead, all you do is stomp your foot and say, “no, everything you think you know is wrong because I say so.”

To which I can only shrug my shoulders and wish you well, because there is no possible response to that. May the Lord enlighten us both.

Sincerely,

“I will never join any organization that locks its people into such a PRONOUNCED INABILITY to openly discuss what is true, to use all the gifts God has provided in arriving at truth. Look at your own Aquinas! Contra Aquinas, you have your own version of total depravity.”

~ ~ ~

Are you talking about me? The FR way...tee hee.

“Pronounced Inability”, it’s not that at all, Protestants have been discussing their rejection of the faith since 1517. The protests have been explained, shown to be nonsense...10 thousand times. It gets boring repeating.

People who base their salvation on heresies do not
have the Truth. “Man is completely depraved” came from
a man not God.

The faith is divine, given to us from Christ. To belittle
the faith if you mean to include it in “any organization.”

The Truth is avoided, you nice talk about the saints, like
the above...right...while you acknowledge Aquinas and Augustine. They lived, they are Roman Catholic. Go further, both men believed with all their hearts in the most Holy Eucharist. Tell me....

Why would anyone accept bread and wine, sometimes juice and crackers when you can receive God Himself?

St. Jerome complied the first Bible, so sad your rejection of this fact and your rejection of the most Holy Eucharist.

It is immature how Protestants bring up Catholic saints and Catholic teaching and Catholic history to reject the faith. Trying to show the saints support Protestantism or to try prove the truth of the faith is wrong.

Change, a person can “join” become Roman Catholic. It’s
Our Lord’s wish.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.