From the blog: Mormons claim to be Christian, while at the same time denying divine authority and full legitimacy to all other Christian denominations.
Well, ya gotta understand...Joseph Smith Had to do that...elsewise there was absolutely no need for a so-called Mormon "restoration."
The "bottom line" that is "Mormon ground zero" for any interfaith discussion MUST be to evaluate every Christian denomination through their filter of apostasy...
Why is that? Because to the Mormon, the "restoration" is always a hand-in-glove concept with a supposed total apostasy...hence, why we Christians (ALL of us) are regarded by Mormons as so-called "apostates."
How did the Mormon "restoration" come to be so closely linked with so-called complete Christian apostasy?
(1) No "restoration" can occur minus the complete loss of the original church. (The Mormon founder needed to take a scorched-earth approach to Christians, otherwise he -- and his restoration -- was 100% superflous. Either he was unnecessary, or the Christian church was...so Smith chose the Christian church to be! He essentially tossed all Christians into one gigantic graveyard, and tried to erect a new religion on top of it.)
(2) Let's face it, if Smith's "diagnosis" of Christians was wrong, that all did NOT commit apostasy, then no need existed for him or his restoration-from-scratch. [Even all the Lds Bible verses they come up with on the apostasy (a) proves it wasn't to be "universal"; and (b) actually contradicts it...verses like Eph. 3:21 and 1 Tim. 4:1]
Hence, this article's blogger -- Dave Banack -- is only telling "half" (at best) the tale as to how Mormon leaders treat Christians!
For example: Let's assume a Mormon who...
...has the absolute BEST manners, best attitude, best tone,
...and then cites Lds-specific "scripture," saying...
..."Yea, oh, yea, this is God's opinion of you spoken in the canonized word throught the 'prophet' Joseph Smith -- You, oh, Christian are ALL...
...'corrupt professors' saith the 14 or 15 yo Joseph Smith as spoken to the Mormon God...
...thee are 100% wrong creedally...
...and NONE of your churches are worth joining,
...and you lack any true power...
...oh, and BTW, you are ALL apostates, too."
You know what? I'd rather have...
...a Christian of another true Christian denomination condemn me to hell in word, tone, and attitude...
...than a Mormon who is exemplary in tone, attitude & manner -- yet labels me with this huge kind, nice, smiley-face grin a...
...corrupt,
...powerless,
...abominable apostate heart-drifter...
...who teaches only human precepts...
...and is ALL wrong.
AND EVERY TITHING MORMON HAS ENGAGED IN THIS LABELING...
...And exactly how have they done that?
...BECAUSE THEY HAVE PAID FOR HUNDREDS OF TRANSLATIONS OF THIS 'SCRIPTURE' AND CURRICULA AND ENSIGN MAG ARTICLES AND MISSIONARY LESSON PLANS AND OFTEN MISSIONARIES THEMSELVES to go 'round the world to spread this slander and libel!!!!
Scroll down to comment #11 from Manuel -- and you'll see:
I definitely see what Dave is saying and the problem with reciprocity. I however, did not grow up in the US Mormon safeheaven, rather, I grew up as a young Mormon having converted from Catholicism in Mexico, where there are still heated confrontations regarding the legitimacy of Catholic Priesthood vs the legitimacy of LDS Priesthood (which we claim was restored since it was lost due to a “Great Apostasy.”
Growing up among Mormons in Mexico, I heard countless times from Mormons the Catholic Church was de facto the “Great and Abominable Church” spoken of in the scriptures.
I cannot possibly believe the people here claiming they have never known a Mormon as described by Dave in the OP. I am having a real hard time believing that and that little frustration of the “all is well in Zion, we are such good and belevolent people who are simply mistunderstood by others unwillingness to understand us” pathology really starts to seem like a creepy problem among Mormons.
At the same time, now living in UT, I realize there are in fact places where Mormons remain completely isolated from certain aspects of our interaction with other faiths, and thus many of them simply ignore what really goes on, how we ourlseves attack others. Assuming that their view is the general reality of our interfaith relations seems quite a bit presumptuous (and ignorant of course).
The language we Mormons use against other denominations is definitely strong (even Richard Bushman has noted this). We claim to have the restored Priesthood, we claim no other denomination has such priesthood therefore, no other denomination has the legitimate authority to celebrate sacraments in the name of God with true validity.
We make claims “the Lord” stated the denominations found in the time of Joseph Smith are “an abomination” to Him.
We do seem to completely forget (or completely conveniently ignore) these things though when we cry and moan that other denominations don’t aknowledge us as Christians, and we paint ourselves as a benevolent group trying to be good buddies with others with parallel beliefs.
See it’s easy to play victim, but we really aren’t. We are vicious at playing the name calling game and making strong claims of our own Christian legitimacy vs other denominations’ Christian illegitimacy. We play the game and we play it good. I am with Dave on this one that it appears as if we have not thought things through.
Boy, did Manuel the Mormon-from-Mexico-now-living-in-insulated Utah hit it on the head! People who don’t see the problem of reciprocity do need to think things through, study and perhaps get a bit more acquainted with actual interactions between regular LDS members and their non LDS peers.
That said, I will still vote for Romney. I am only voting for him for president, not pastor, which is a more important office.
As long as Romney doesn't use the presidency to peddle distinctive Mormon false doctrines--and I don't think either Governor Romney did--then his LDS heresy doesn't stop me from voting for him.
Besides, Obama doesn't belong to any church now, and his previous Rev. Wright church did not teach Christian doctrine, either.
Scroll down to comment #11 from Manuel -- and you'll see:
********************
We make claims “the Lord” stated the denominations found in the time of Joseph Smith are “an abomination” to Him.
We do seem to completely forget (or completely conveniently ignore) these things though when we cry and moan that other denominations don’t aknowledge us as Christians, and we paint ourselves as a benevolent group trying to be good buddies with others with parallel beliefs.
See it’s easy to play victim, but we really aren’t. We are vicious at playing the name calling game and making strong claims of our own Christian legitimacy vs other denominations’ Christian illegitimacy. We play the game and we play it good.
**************
Yes, indeed...As this Mormon concedes, "We are vicious at playing the name calling game...We play the game and we play it good."
So what about "boundaries" 'tween Mormons and Christians. How do we tend to draw those lines distinctively?
#1 Jesus draws the line at Himself. Mormons? They draw the line at places like Joseph Smith and the Lds Church!
Example A – Brigham Young: "...EVERYevery spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Antichrist..." (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 435)
(Does that sound very “civil” to you – for Mormon “prophets” to label us all as “of Antichrist”???)
Example B – Spencer W. Kimball, Lds’ 12th “prophet”: "Presumptuous and blasphemous are they who purport to baptize, bless, marry, or perform other sacraments in the name of the Lord while in fact lacking his specific authorization." (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 494)
Now with this quote you need to understand that Lds teach ALL authority for this priesthood ability rests ONLY in the Mormon church. Therefore, they label ALL Christian pastors and priests who ”baptize, bless, marry, and perform …sacraments” as engaging in “blasphemous” behavior. See how skewed doctrinal believes leads to “uncivil” accusations?
Example C – Lds leaders: "Since whoever does not belong to 'the church of the Lamb of God' belongs to 'the church of the devil,' as Nephi announced then all systems of worship outside of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be classified as 'the church of the devil' by Nephi's definition (Kent B. Jackson, "Watch and Remember" etc. from publication By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 3/27/90, vol. 1, p. 87)
We can see how it’s not exactly “hospitable” for the Mormon claim that all other churches are part of “the church of the devil”? I suppose you may next simply say, “Well, hey, if all they are doing is teaching what their word says, how can that be deemed as ‘uncivil?’ For one thing, most Christians seem to own up to the implications of John 14:6 (or, at least, they one time did). Mormons don’t EVER want to seem to own up to the implications of D&C 1:30, 1 Nephi 14:9-10, and JS – History, vv. 18-20.
In other words, they like to play “victim” and say “woe is us” – look at how Mormons are being treated – not realizing that the same thing (only often worse) has been coming right out of their tithing $ paying for the Lds publishing expenses on these accusations.
See it’s easy to play victim, but we really aren’t. We are vicious at playing the name calling game and making strong claims of our own Christian legitimacy vs other denominations’ Christian illegitimacy. We play the game and we play it good.
Professors @ BYU confirm this viciousness on the part of insular Mormonism in Utah.
In 2001 at the BYU Women’s Conference, James A. Toronto, a BYU associate professor, was invited to speak. His title: “No More Strangers and Foreigners” This was published by BYU the following year under the title “Ye Shall Bear Record of Me.”
BTW, did I "get this" info from some "anti-Mormon" site? (No. I own the book)
Allow me to quote Dr. Toronto:
p. 35 of No More Strangers and Foreigners: ”As adviser to several non-LDS student groups on BYU campus and a teacher of world religions, I have had many opportunities to interact with those whose ethnicity, religion, politics or lifestyle places them outside the BYU mainstream…Unfortunately…those of divergent backgrounds among us hae felt excluded, demeaned, or diminished…I have wondered what leads us to exhibit sometimes intolerant, unkind attitudes toward others. Why does society at large perceive us as a community characterized by insular attitudes toward outsiders?”
Toronto then adds some are “mistreated” and “have difficulty being accepted.”
p. 36 of book: ”I have also observed that doctrinal misunderstandings often lie at the root of intolerant behavior and attitudes sometimes exhibited by Church members. Three prominent examples will illustrate. First, sometimes Church members…refer…only to the seemingly exclusivist language of certain scriptural passages…we unwittingly portray a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou stance that…is offensive to nonmembers. In my comparative world religions course, I deal with this problem in the first minute of the first class period each semester. I begin the discussion by reading some scriptures familiar to all Latter-day Saints: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ‘the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth’ (D&C 1:30); the leaders of other faiths ‘draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me’ and all their creeds are an ‘abomination’ in God’s sight (Joseph Smith-History 1:19)…”
p. 37 of book: ”We reinforce the erroneous idea that all other religious are completely false and dead and that our community does not value the spiritual experience of others.”
On p. 39 of book, Dr. Toronto also mentions ”how a skewed understanding of doctrine can lead to unkind attitudes and behavior…”
So, to sum up Dr. Toronto, a BYU prof in a book published by BYU:
(1) He said: ”…doctrinal misunderstandings often lie at the root of intolerant behavior and attitudes…” (p. 36)
(2) Lds communicate to the Christian world that we “are completely false and dead” (p. 37) and are creedally valueless as Lds “scripture” teaches that Christians don’t have a single creed that honors God.
(3) He also blamed ”…a skewed understanding of doctrine” as what was behind …”lead[ing] to unkind attitudes and behavior…”
It's this last point I want to close my comment upon. You see, it's not simply, I believe, lack of Mormon graciousness...lack of Mormon charity...etc. that has resulted in what Mormons and especially Mormon leaders have said about Christians for 180 years. I think Dr. Toronto is on to something when he says: "...a skewed understanding of doctrine" has overwhelmingly contributed to fueling "unkind attitudes and behaviors..."!!!
You see, Lds parse it all to either...
...strip us Christians of our entire identity,
...or simply play theological games where they ignore what their leaders have said about us ...But, alas the Mormon "we're oppressed & persecuted victim" sob story doesn't sell very well once it gets out all the different labels with which they've slandered the worldwide Church of Christ!
That's where the game of Clue comes in as an illustration...
...it just doesn't seem to click with Mormons that unless...
...Joseph Smith...
...killed Rev. Green...
...in the Hall...
...with a monkey wrench [Note: in the UK version of "Clue," "Mr. Green" is known as "Rev. Green"],
...then no restoration...
...no new prophet...
...no new authority...
...no new keys of the kingdom...
...no new church...
...were needed!
(It 'twas entirely ALL superflous and unnecessary).
And there goes the entire Mormon structure tumbling down the wayside!
What a "tough" way to go then for the contemporary Mormon. He can either join in with Mormon leaders and engage in all that nasty vicious name-calling of ALL of "Christendom" --
-- or he/she can recognize the Lds church was entirely superflous and unnecessary!
There's no "middle ground."
Gracers....
“Whores of Babylon....”
“Stupider pack of lies.....”
Mormonism is going to be forced to address these issues, or continue its melt down in membership.
Either the ‘orthodox’ mormonism wins out - then the emphasis on them being ‘christian’ will die down with greater emphasis on separation. Or the professors at byu will win out and dilute fundamental mormon doctrines such as the alleged factual history of the bom to be substituted as an allegory or spiritual story. More acceptance of the Christian doctrine of grace displacing traditional works based salvation.
HELL NO!!!!
Charles had better get over to a MORMON 'temple' if he REALLY wants the job done RIGHT!!
...we want it both ways: we want to be recognized as Christian by other Christians but, at the same time, we don’t want to grant reciprocal recognition to other denominations.