Posted on 05/17/2012 4:18:46 PM PDT by Salvation
Despite your focus only on the relative few who swim the Tiber to Rome, the fact remains that the vast majority of converts percentage wise has been and i (though decreasing perhaps) out of Rome and toward evangelical faith (which why stories like your post are more notable), though both are losing to "Nones" in this cynical, non-committal culture (thus the similar growth of political Independents). And if wasn't not for immigrant Latin Catholics, the percent of Catholics in America would be decreasing.
Besides the consistent stats, here are some excerpts:
Why Do Catholics Become Evangelicals?
Catholicculture.org
In an article entitled, "The Glory and Power of the Gospel," Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa —l; Preacher to the papal household — in a retreat for 1,500 priests and seventy bishops has shockingly described the state of the Catholic Church in Latin America by noting that Catholics there proclaim that, "When we need a labor union we go to our parish priest; when we need the word of God we go to the Protestant pastor," and that, "In Latin America the Catholic Church has made an option for the poor and the poor have opted for the Protestant Churches."1, Ralph Martin too, has noted that, in 1991, Pope John Paul II called a consistory to examine what could only be described as a hemorrhage of the Catholic faithful to Evangelical Protestantism.
The cardinals had a lot to say about the spectacular growth of the Evangelical and Pentecostal churches, which, in Latin America in particular, are attracting many Catholics. Cardinal Miguel Obando y Bravo of Managua, Nicaragua, told the Cardinals that a "Protestant explosion" has seen the number of Protestants in Latin America grow from 4 million in 1967 to 30 million in 1985...
A 1986 Gallup Poll revealed that in the preceding 10 years, 5 million Hispanics joined Evangelical and Pentecostal churches, approximately 30 percent of the 17 million Hispanics in the United States. Of these, 64 percent converted to these groups from Catholicism."3 The situation is not limited to Hispanics in or out of the U.S.
The same trend is visible in the United States. American Catholic leaders have also expressed a great concern about the growth of Evangelical and Pentecostal churches in this country, a growth that often comes through Catholics leaving their churches. Here, statistics are hard to come by. Much anecdotal evidence suggests that many members of Pentecostal and independent charismatic churches are former Catholics. This is especially true of regions with a large Catholic population. One researcher who did an informal survey estimates that 30 percent of the 35 million Evangelicals and Pentecostals in the United States are first- or second-generation former Catholics.4 http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7417
The number of Spanish-speaking evangelicals is growing, in Wichita and across the U.S
JOE RODRIGUEZ AND ICESS FERNANDEZ, The Wichita Eagle
When Milca Molina moved to Wichita from Los Angeles nearly 20 years ago, there were two evangelical churches in the city that had a predominantly Spanish-speaking congregation. Today, there are more than 15, according to Molina, who helped start one of them -- Iglesia Cristiana Nueva Jerusalem, 1650 S. Broadway. Molina serves as associate pastor of the church. Her husband is pastor. "We are reaching out to people," Molina said, "and the churches are growing." Take the Molinas' church, for example. Molina and her husband, Azarel, started the church 15 years ago, and it had fewer than 40 members.
The church now has a congregation of about 300 and is planning to soon purchase its first church building. It currently holds its worship services at the former Kansas Blue Print building.The boom among Hispanic evangelical Christians isn't limited to Wichita.Nationwide, there are now about 10 million Hispanic Protestants, according to the recent Hispanic Churches in American Public Life research project. That number has doubled during the past 10 years, according to the Rev. Samuel Rodriguez Jr., founder and president of the Sacramento, Calif.-based National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. The conference represents Hispanic evangelicals in the United States and Puerto Rico.
"This is the Protestant Reformation for Hispanics," Rodriguez said. The growth shouldn't be a surprise.Nationwide, the U.S. Hispanic population grew from 22.4 million in 1990 to an estimated 42.7 million in 2005, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.In Wichita, the population has also increased rapidly. According to 2005 bureau estimates, nearly 51,000 Hispanics lived in Wichita. That number has more than tripled since 1990, according to the bureau. Among all U.S. Hispanics, nearly 70 percent are Catholics. But a report on Hispanics and religion released earlier this year showed that half of Hispanic evangelicals came to the faith from other backgrounds and more than 80 percent of them are former Catholics.
That report -- conducted by the Washington, D.C.-based research groups Pew Hispanic Center and the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life -- said that more than 80 percent of all Hispanic Christian converts cited a "desire for a more direct, personal experience with God" as a reason for their conversion. Few Hispanics -- only 7 percent -- said they left Catholicism because they were dissatisfied with the church's position on certain issues, the report said. http://www.nhclc.org/en/news/number-spanish-speaking-evangelicals-growing-wichita-and-across-us
The hidden exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants (Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why)
By Thomas Reese, S.J.
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions.
This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc.
Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated.
People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
Spiritual needs The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty....
National Catholic Reporter http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CMcBEBYwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fncronline.org%2Fnews%2Fhidden-exodus-catholics-becoming-protestants&ei=sUi5T_7BOsu16AH0h4nlCg&usg=AFQjCNGNQVTZw0IQ6IxWPzB2VEzHYmvDXQ&sig2=bUhjnUFzYrKwyC7lFj-a3g
Norman L. Geisler responds to why some evangelicals leave for Rome (http://www.normgeisler.com/articles/RomanCatholicism/WhyCatholicsLeave.htm), and i think it is much due to the increasing superficiality in evangelical faith in yielding to the society, and the vain attraction of outward form, but that is not the fault of the faith, but of compromising of it, rather than living by effectual faith, which cause Roman Catholics would also attribute for losses of their faith, which is more reflective of society
On rereading your reply, perhaps you wanted the link again to the whole compilation, which i did not include again because i was trying to “hide” anything, but simply did not think to include it again, (while you forgot to include a link to your stats in post 159). Sorry if i misunderstood you. Here it is: http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html
Great analysis. Thanks.
They don’t like the truth, do they?
TURN ABOUT (Carl Olson, former Evangelical and Monday's guest on EWTN's Journey Home)
How many Catholics voted is not the pertinent stat, but the percentage and the type of Christian group at issue, which my (referenced) stats included.
See here for chart.
Also,
Millions Catholics still favor Obama over GOP candidates
At the start of 2012, American Catholics prefer Obama to GOP picks. (AP)
With many American Catholic leaders blaming the current administration for a new requirement that Catholic employers provide birth control coverage, you’d think that President Barack Obama wouldn’t exactly be their favorite person right now.
Still, a survey conducted this week has the president beating Republican hopefuls Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich among Catholic voters in the 2012 race.
According to the Public Religion Research Institute, Obama gets 48 percent of the Catholic votes to Romney’s 40 percent and 56 percent of the Catholic vote to Gingrich’s 32 percent.
PRRI also noted that about half of Catholic voters also voice concern about the wealth gap in America and the state of the country’s poor, an issue that was the subject of a Romney gaffe Wednesday, when he told CNN he was “not concerned about the very poor.”
A majority of American Catholics went Democrat and voted for Obama in 2008 , the Pew Forum found, but had sided with Republican candidates and split down the middle in previous presidential elections. http://blog.chron.com/believeitornot/2012/02/catholics-still-favor-obama-over-gop-candidates/
Those were NOT Catholics. Those were CINOs who don’t know that voting dimocrat is committing a mortal sin. They don’t realize that the dimocrat’s have a plank in their party platform supporting abortion.
They are only CINOs, not Catholics.
Whatever happened to *once a Catholic, always a Catholic* and that baptism into the Catholic church leaves an indelible mark on the soul?
On what or whose authority do you disown those whom the Catholic church has not ex-communicated and who the Catholic church still counts as members to make that 1.2 billion strong?
As I said only CINOs — not practicing Catholics.
They will always be a baptized Catholics and have to answer for the fruit they bear in their lives.
We have heard that before also, and i do understand your grief, but while we defend a general evangelical faith which formally separates from mainline Prots, RCs cannot do that except to be in schism as the SSPX and Sedevacantists and EOs, did to different degrees.
And until Rome effectually makes it manifest that voting democrat is committing a mortal sin, and excommunicates men like Ted Kennedy and supporters or otherwise treats them as such (so they become the small minority which TCs are now, instead of being the majority), rather than counting and treating them as members in life (and in stats) and in death, then we must also count them as members, and as representing what Rome most effectually conveys, and what constitutes what she asserts is the OTC.
It is not the "Rome" that you state.
It is the Catholic Church throughout the ENTIRE world. Here is a link to all the different rites, including the Latin Rite, which you call, "Rome" or RC.
The Rites of the Catholic Church [Catholic Caucus]
One and Many Churches (origins of the Church)
THE RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH -- There are many!
(Cardinal) Newman on Rites and Ceremonies
Pertinent? The numbers speak for themselves and tell a different story than what you are inferring. I am adding or subtracting nothing from them. Four times as many non-Catholics voted for Obama than did Catholics and only 1/3 of Catholics actually cast their ballots for him. Perhaps that is why so many of the anti-Catholics are ashamed to admit their denomination affiliations.
Anyone with any knowledge of the subject matter and basic statistics will not be swayed by deceptive presentations and intellectually dishonest extrapolation to prove a point.
Peace be with you.
If its not the number than offend then its the term, but “Rome” is short for the Roman Catholic, or “Roman church” as their headwaters is in Rome, their center of unity, likewise “Washington says” refers to what America says.
If you do not even allow anything more than “Catholic” so that even “Roman church” is disallowed, then that is another story.
Such is typically necessary to differentiate btwn those who defend a church that holds to papal infallibility, and its supremacy magisterial authority, and RC purgatory and indulgences, the Immaculate Conception, which the EOs reject or differ on, and also claim to be the OTC, or other things some Catholics differ on.
The Orthodox Church opposes the Roman doctrines of universal papal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception precisely because they are untraditional.” — Clark Carlton, THE WAY: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church, 1997, p 135.
“Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory.” — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076
In the Nicene Creed of faith our Church is described as the “One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”: “One” because there can only be one true Church with one head Who is Christ... Each of these titles is limiting in some respects, since they define Christians belonging to particular historical or regional Churches of the Orthodox communion...http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/)
Then there are those who attempt to join together all Christian religions into one faith. They would be horrified at the idea of a service with Hindus and Christians celebrating together, yet they do not bat an eyelash at the idea of Orthodox celebrating with Roman Catholics, who with no authority broke off from the Church close to a thousand years ago. (http://www.orthodox.net/articles/against-ecumenism.html)
First, regarding the dress up part, I was referring to my sister and brother in law, not to how others dress. I have a big issue with that. What I can’t figure out is, why does it matter to anyone else how my family members choose to spend an hour on Sunday? It’s really no one’s business. My original post was in reference to others who were saying that they wouldn’t be welcome at Mass because they haven’t been married in the Church. True, Christ is always present in our lives if we choose to accept Him into our lives, but spending an hour in Church attending Mass is hardly a waste of time as it was so inelegantly worded.
I did not one post deceptive presentations and intellectually dishonest extrapolations, and as before, you are far too careless with such charges.
My referenced stats were presented as a comparison of evangelicals with Catholics, and show that the percentage of the latter who are liberal and voted for Obama was far greater than the former.
You want to use numbers and include all Protestants, seeing as Protestants greatly outnumber Catholics, yet even then, rather than Catholics coming out looking good, they voted almost identical with Protestants overall (54% and 53% for Obama, 46% and 45% for Mcain). See table http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/How-the-Faithful-Voted.aspx
You also wrote that while Obama got 54% of the Catholic vote he only received a little more than 33% of the “actual Catholic vote” with the an equal number of Catholics voting for “none of the above,” which is unclear and was unreferenced, and i would like to see it.
You can only get away with these errant presentations in an opinion forum. In any scientific environment these logical fallacies would never stand up to peer or competitive review and analysis. The premise that Catholics are somehow responsible for the current administration is a joke. You need to be clear before making a conclusion The statistics simply do not prove your assertion unless one really, really wants them to. You, my FRiend are far too careless with your conclusions.
Now there's a Catholic doctrine I've never heard of before now...And if that's true, why the need for the Eucharist???
You can only get away with these errant presentations in an opinion forum. In any scientific environment these logical fallacies would never stand up to peer or competitive review and analysis. The premise that Catholics are somehow responsible for the current administration is a joke. You need to be clear before making a conclusion
Despite your misapprehension on what my argument was, the obvious conclusion is that Catholics are more liberal and vote more democratic than evangelicals, and still favor Obama more than they, which was my argument, and thus the focus of my verifiable stats from sources engaged in professional analysis, not that Catholics alone are responsible for the current administration, which was not my premise (though with 54% voting for Obama, and only 45% voting for the alternative, then they and Protestants share the bulk of responsibility, no matter how many stood by and did neither).
Thus my post in response to voting began, "The comparison is btwn evangelicals and RC, as percentages." and (to you) “How many Catholics voted is not the pertinent stat, but the percentage and the type of Christian group at issue.”
Meanwhile, it is who provide referenced substantiation for my argument from sources engaged in professional analysis, and while i do not necessarily dispute it, nor again was Protestant versus Catholic my focus, i am still waiting (beside for your apology for past false charges) for the link that explains how Obama got 54% of the Catholic vote and Mcain received 45%, but Obama only received a little more than 33% of the “actual Catholic vote” with an equal number of Catholics voting for “none of the above,” and how that compares with the “actual Protestant vote,” which would be interesting.
I've never met people so obsessed with Catholics as ex-Catholics. It's like an ex wife following her much happier ex husband around trying to find out what he is up to (and even resorting to such catty behaviours checking out how he is dressing). And it's obvious to everyone that the ex-wife never really got divorced, while the ex husband is just glad that his fishwife is no longer around. The ex wife, sadly, will never realize that the problem is herself and not the man she married. He just doesn't care anymore.
Why do you care?
I understand your argument probably better than you do. I've seen it attempted to be made by far better scholars; four legs good, two legs bad. Fallacious conclusions based upon poorly acquired polling information collected by agenda driven organizations and subsequently argued by an individual with a long record of anti-Catholic activities is cause for apprehension and distrust.
The facts are clear that Obama got only two million more "Catholic" votes than McCain, with most of those coming from Catholics who do not attend Mass regularly or are otherwise in Communion with the Church. When you use the numbers for Catholics who regularly attend Mass you find the numbers tell a completely different story. So, if you are so adamant about counting lapsed and failed Catholics among the vote totals, why don't you count the votes of all of those former Catholics who have become Protestant and Evangelical in the totals as well, or would that diminish from the hateful message you are pushing. While you are at it why don't you disclose your specific denomination for us so that we can verify among other things the comparative conservative voting records and the history of child abuse.
"A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another." - John 13: 34-35
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