Posted on 04/07/2012 3:40:18 PM PDT by NYer
Where is Christ after he dies on Friday afternoon and before he rises on Easter Sunday? Both Scripture and Tradition answer this question. Consider the following from a Second Century Sermon and also a mediation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
An Ancient Sermon:
Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him – He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.” [From an Ancient Holy Saturday Homily ca 2nd Century]
Nothing could be more beautiful than that line addressed to Adam and Eve: I am your God, who, for your sake, became your Son.”
Scripture also testifies to Christ’s descent to the dead and what he did: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison….For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does. (1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:6).
Consider also this from the Catechism on Christ’s descent to the dead, which I summarize and excerpt from CCC # 631-635
[The] first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell [is] that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead.
But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there [1 Peter 3:18-19; 1 Peter 4:6; Heb. 13:20]. Scripture calls [this] abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” – Sheol in Hebrew, or Hades in Greek – because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God [1 Peter 3:18-19].
Such [was] the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they awaited the Redeemer: It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior …whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.”[cf Psalms 89:49; 1 Sam. 28:19; Ezek 32:17ff; Luke 16:22-26]
Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
[So] the gospel was preached even to the dead. The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.
Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”[1 Peter 4:6] Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying, destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage” [John 5:25; Mt 12:40; Rom 10:7; Eph 4:9].
Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.”[Heb 2:14-15; Acts 3:15]
Selah ... and thank you.
In vs. 24 Paul says Christ appeared in the holy place (heaven) before God “for us”. That this was different from the Levites offering sacrifices was that this sacrifice was once, not often as the high priest would do, entering to offer sacrifices on a yearly basis. (vs.25)
Obviously this only occurred following Christ's death and resurrection.
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
THESE folks?
I just posted the above...
Please note the ‘God will bring with Jesus’ portion. In my calculus, the way God brings them with Jesus as He returns is they are in the spirit, and ‘rise first’ is a physical manifestation of the body and soul or behavior mechanism raised to be united with their spirit which God brings with Jesus in His return.
In mine, Jesus 'brings' them FROM the GRAVE they have been laying in since death.
Re read the passage, Elsie. The bodies have been ‘in the grave’, but not the spirits which God brings with Jesus in His return. Jesus IS God in the flesh, God with us thus His name. When Jesus returns, the spirits are reunited to a body, a body fit to dwell in eternity and we who are alive and remain shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye.
Excellent and pithy point!
Lousy and inaccurate points. Allow me to illustrate.
2 Kings 2: 1And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2 Kings 2: 11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Hebrews 11: 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Now, the examples of Moses and Elisha are a little less clear, but there it is.
If your objections are that since nobody was taken up to Heaven before Mary, it can not be true, then I think that we lay those to rest.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html gives the English version of MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS (with Scriptural and Church Father references).
That is what the article says regarding three often used Scriptural passages.
Then all of the references to SLEEPING in the grave are very misleading.
Yup; there they are.
But there is NO 'example' for Mary.
Yup; there they are. But there is NO 'example' for Mary.
Not in canonized Scripture, although writings of the Assumption of Mary (or Dormition from the East) started to arise in the first few centuries after the Incarnation. The first objections were recorded in the eighth century or so.
The main basis appears to be the idea that Mary is the new Ark. As the Israelites had the Ark of the Covenant, so Christians have Mary, or so the thinking goes.
Sola Scriptura is actually verboten Scripturally, yet we have many who believe in it.
That being the case the accounts of Enoch and Elijah must be understood in that context.
In Enoch's case he is said to “nowhere to be found since God took him”. In a similar way God cut short Moses” life and in some fashion disposed of his body.
In so far as Enoch going into “heaven” in light of Jesus words this term “heavens” must be understood to mean the visible area above the earth, the heavens.
Elijah was carried off in the heavens but he didn't die or go into heaven, God's abode as some months later Elijah was writing letters to Jehoram warning him against his rebellious conduct. (2 Chron. 21:12)
One must be careful to distinguish what meaning of the heaven is meant and in these we can from the statement of Jesus at John 3:13 and elsewhere.
In the case of Moses and Elisha Jesus plainly calls it a vision, not the actual persons. (Matt. 17:9)
Very good.
That being the case the accounts of Enoch and Elijah must be understood in that context.
Also, very good.
In so far as Enoch going into “heaven” in light of Jesus words this term “heavens” must be understood to mean the visible area above the earth, the heavens.
Interesting terminology. Are you saying that Enoch went to die in a space station?
Elijah was carried off in the heavens but he didn't die or go into heaven, God's abode as some months later Elijah was writing letters to Jehoram warning him against his rebellious conduct. (2 Chron. 21:12)
I'm not following. Did Elijah go to a space station, too and then return to Earth?
In the case of Moses and Elisha Jesus plainly calls it a vision, not the actual persons. (Matt. 17:9)
Yet others vehemently argue that Paul's visions are the real thing. Now we have visions that are not the real thing. Can you reconcile these various concepts?
“Interesting terminology. Are you saying that Enoch went to die in a space station?”
Please! Don’t insult me with absurdities!
“Can you reconcile these various concepts?”
No, and I feel no need to make the attempt. Much of the argument comes from a lack of understanding of the resurrection and when Jesus’ sacrifice made that possible so if there are concepts that need to be reconciled, they need to be reconciled with the Scriptures.
So what exactly needs to be “laid to rest”?
Please! Don’t insult me with absurdities!
Then please tell us your interpretation. They didn't have weather balloons, airplanes, or any other flying machine. Did God put Enoch on ice in the stratosphere?
No, and I feel no need to make the attempt. Much of the argument comes from a lack of understanding of the resurrection and when Jesus’ sacrifice made that possible so if there are concepts that need to be reconciled, they need to be reconciled with the Scriptures. So what exactly needs to be “laid to rest”?
What you mean by your statements. If you do not think that Enoch, Elijah, et al, went to Heaven, then where did they go?
Do you believe our spirit sleeps? Our body remains at work even when our brains are asleep, so why wouldn't the spirit also remain active? ... I know, so many questions, so few answers.
Jesus said they didn't go to heaven. Remember “no man has ascended to heaven...” and Peter's words about David not ascending to heaven? They all had to wait in the grave, Hades, Sheol until brought forth from the memorial tombs.
“Did God put Enoch on ice in the stratosphere?”
What did God do with Moses? Genesis says God took Enoch, where is left unsaid. Paul said “translated” (AV) but to where? Unsaid.
Elijah certainly wasn't writing letters from heaven was he?
Without Jesus blood being poured out in sacrifice how could any of the aforementioned go to heaven?
An excellent point and one that we might consider as a possibility.
The Bible also indicates that those saved by His Grace will be equiped with a body physical which will be fit for eternal living. There are realms and temporal realities which we are just not privy to at this stage in our development. That protects us and makes our exercising faith a real power ... faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.
Again, another possibility.
As we are now, Satan can lie to us and fool us. As we will be 'then' no lie will be possible. Jesus left the burial clothes without unwrapping the body wraps. He left the stone-bound tomb without using a doorway and appeared in the upper room without opening a window or door. There are accessible to Jesus temporal/spatial realms we cannot sense in our present state of existence.
And yet, again.
Do you believe our spirit sleeps? Our body remains at work even when our brains are asleep, so why wouldn't the spirit also remain active? ... I know, so many questions, so few answers.
My friend, you once again have posted wisdom. I appreciate the spirit and the intellect behind your posts - and except for the settling-in period where I was trying to figure out where you were coming from, I always have.
You post questions and possibilities, not certitude where none is possible. Appreciate it. I agree that we here know so little and that we shall know so much when we move beyond death and into the realm of the King. I pray that I shall be Judged to salvation and not to damnation. At that point, we shall all know.
However, that is up to Him and not to me.
I am the lesser son of greater sires. My only hope is the hope of Paul as he told the Thessalonians - the hope of salvation in Jesus Christ.
Jesus said they didn't go to heaven. Remember “no man has ascended to heaven...” and Peter's words about David not ascending to heaven? They all had to wait in the grave, Hades, Sheol until brought forth from the memorial tombs.
Are you saying that Sheol is in the upper atmosphere?
Without Jesus blood being poured out in sacrifice how could any of the aforementioned go to heaven?
Beats me. I'm trying to figure out where you're going with all this.
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