Posted on 03/15/2012 11:29:19 AM PDT by NYer
I was loaded for bear when I heard a clip (on the radio) of Chris Matthews saying, what sounded to me, that Catholics and Mormons were “cultists.” However, as I examined the clip further on my own, and heard it in context, I discovered that his comment, while still bigoted, had to be understood differently.
In effect Mr. Matthews was saying that southern Evangelicals consider Catholics and Mormons to be cultists and, despite that, they are willing to hold their nose and vote for “cultists” since they dislike President Obama even more. Thus Mr. Matthews did in fact make a bigoted comment, but he directed it against Evangelicals, whose views he simplifies, demonizes and caricatures. The video below contains his comments. And here are some brief written excerpts of what he said. Remember, he is saying what he thinks are the views of Southern Evangelicals:
They’re [i.e. Evangelicals] not going to vote for President Obama. So who [are] they going get to beat him? That seems to be on their minds now, not who they like. They are willing to outsource it to a Mormon. …It’s almost like calling up India, or somewhere in the third-world to get your computer fixed. You don’t care who is fixing it, just fix the damn computer. They have…two RCs — Roman Catholics, running and a Mormon, so they’re three cultists running. I have to pick one of the three cultists, as they see them. This isn’t as funny as I’m making it, but it’s ridiculous to pick a guy they really think is the heretic…[so] they pick the guy they don’t like to pick [i.e. beat] a guy they hate worse,“
It’s a bit garbled but to summarize, Mr. Matthews is saying, in effect, that the hopelessly bigoted Republican Evangelicals in the South are obviously prejudiced against both Mormons and Catholics, but they’re willing to put aside their concerns, for the moment, just to ensure that the candidate they chose is most likely to defeat President Obama.
It is clear that this is a prejudicial rant, it is uncalled for and simplistic. Evangelicals, where ever they live are more diverse and sophisticated than Mr. Matthews presumes. However I do have a couple of questions to pose about his claims, especially about how you think Evangelicals regard Catholics and Mormons.
First, I wonder if there has not been a great easing of tensions at many levels between Catholics and Evangelicals. What do you think?
I recall, as a youngster, that Evangelicals, (we often called them “Fundamentalists in those days), would quite publicly vilify Catholicism with terms such as popery, whore of Babylon, cult, Mary worshipers, etc. It would be almost unthinkable in those days (60s and 70s) for Catholics and Evangelicals to meet on common ground, except perhaps to debate the “errors” of Catholicism.
But I think there is a lot less of this today. To be sure, we still have very significant theological differences, and these do still cause some tension. However, I think the dialogue today is much more respectful between Catholics and Evangelicals. Our commonalities on Abortion and the moral issues have a lot to do with this. We have learned to work together and have grown in mutual respect.
I have personally come to appreciate the zeal for faith that many Evangelicals I have known have. Further, they have a fine tradition of good biblical preaching and a love for Scripture that is admirable. Differences in interpretation of Scripture are not minimal, but ultimately there is a lot of common ground on the premise that Scripture is the inspired and infallible Word of God in matters of faith and morals, and that it cannot be set aside for any purpose.
The steady stream of converts to Catholicism also shows greater openness and respect from the Evangelical side. They too have come to know, trust and respect us based on our work together in pro-life action and a shared vision on the moral issues of our day. We, as the Church are enriched by the gifts they bring with them from their Evangelical roots.
At least this is how I see it. While not not denying that some anti-Catholic bigotry still exists in pockets of the Evangelical community, I don’t see it as strong and widespread as Chris Matthews does. What do you think, do most Evangelicals see us as “cultists” or not?
Second, regarding Mormons the situation is less serene. I do hear a lot of strongly negative things said of Mormons by both Catholics and Evangelicals. And the word “cult” is often used.
Frankly I have concerns about using the word “cult” in reference to Mormons. First of all “cult,” as used in American English, does not really express the Catholic understanding. When the word “cult” is used in official Church documents, it is usually meant in a positive manner, (e.g. the “cult of the Saints”). “Cult” or cultus in the Catholic lexicon refers to religious devotion of some sort. The modern use of the word “cult” among Americans is strongly pejorative and not particularly helpful, especially where Mormonism is concerned.
To be clear, I do think that Mormonism is a false religion, or at least a heretical offshoot of Christianity, which has departed so far from the Christian faith as to no longer be considered Christian. However the use of the word cult may not help advance trust or engender a true or fair consideration of Mormons.
I want to say that I am no expert on Mormonism, but I have come to discover that neither are many of the critics I have heard. I have a Catholic acquaintance who is a former Mormon, and I often run some of the crazier things I hear past him. And though he is a clear critic of the Mormonism he left, for theological reasons, he often smiles at some of the wilder things. As for Mormons getting their own planet, he thinks this is blown out of proportion since it is not an official teaching of theirs, but a speculation of certain Mormons of how to interpret Jesus’ words In my Father’s House there are many mansions - Jn 14:2. According to him, most Mormons would simply conclude they don’t know what this means exactly, perhaps a house, a planet, but most just say they don’t know, except that somehow they will one day reign with Christ. As to the claim that they think they will become gods, here too, though a critic of Mormon theology on the Trinity and many other things, he thinks this claim is unfair, and a caricature of their belief that they will share one day in the divine nature. But this is a standard Christian belief too, (e.g. 2 Peter 1:4).
Now I can hear some of you now, “Boy, Msgr. Pope really has the wool pulled over his eyes and doesn’t seem to know that this is a dangerous cult.” Again let me say, I don’t really know much about Mormonism. But what I am saying is that if we are going to criticize it, let’s make sure we are fair and accurate.
As Catholics we know how many have distorted notions of our beliefs and practices, whether now or in the past. No matter how many times we say we don’t worship Mary, some still think we do, etc. Lets just be careful not to engage in the same things toward Mormons and lets be careful that we are critiquing real Mormonism, not just a straw man.
Back to Chris Matthew’s point. Is he right that Evangelicals (and many Catholics for that matter) see Mormons as cultists? If they vote for Mitt Romney, do they see themselves as having to hold their nose and vote for a devout member of a cult?
Frankly, while I disagree with Mr. Matthews on most Evangelicals seeing Catholics as cultist, I think he may be right on their attitudes toward Mormons. And, I would add that I think most Catholics see them that way too.
For the reasons stated, I would like to see us avoid the use of the word cult in reference to Mormons. Candid discussion of our theological differences is essential, and will become more so if Mr. Romney gets the nomination. Faithful Catholics will need clear teaching on the errors of Mormonism. But it will also be true that many on the political left will distort and exaggerate Mormon beliefs for their own political reasons. I hope we will be careful to avoid spreading false and exaggerated claims. Lets critique true Mormonism, not the secular and political left’s notions of it.
Chris Matthews cartoonishly says that Evangelicals consider Mormons (and us) to be cultists. I would like to think he is wrong on both counts and is in fact himself the bigot. And yet I cannot wholly say that the world “cult” is not often used by both Protestants and Catholics in discussions of Mormonism.
What do you think? Do Evangelicals still widely consider us a cult? Do you think Mormons are a cult? Or do you think we should find other ways of describing our differences. Is Chris Matthews right about southern Evangelicals? Or is he bigoted and wrong?
Don’t you know? God can save anyone from sin, except Mary. He couldn’t save her before the Cross. He is bound by time.
Mormons believe they are the ONLY ones who will return to the presence of God the Father (Heaven to Christians, the Celestial Kingdom for Mormons).
Why don’t you do some research and help us expose Mormonism and bring them to Christ?
Then explain why the South is going for one of the two Catholics running and not the Mormon?
And a number of Catholics who don’t believe anyone else is Christian.
So what!
Chrissie is trying to stir up the mud, the mud is happy to come out and play.
Divide and conquer. Real smart of this guy to play into Chrissy’s hands.
I agree that this is a doctrine well off the base and we should seek to save anyone who is lost. However, I do not even want to own deciding whether they or another are saved. That is His say, alone.
An easy test: sometimes in service we’ll restate corporately that we believe in Yeshua and in his blood which saved us. This for new believers in the congregation; but to me, if once true, always true. So I’m excited to say it again.
Someone who is lost, will not repeat the statement, unless they’re changing their mind ;}
Least of three evils I reckon.
What you don’t seem to get is that Mormonism is an entirely different animal.
I normally don’t go around stating who is saved and who is not, but in the case of Mormonism, it is impossible to accept the Christ of the Bible and remain Mormon. They are completely different. A false Christ leads to a false sense of Salvation.
It goes far beyond Mormons having different doctrine. They redfine simple words like Christ, Salvation, Heaven, God. So to the Christian who doesn’t know better will equate the LDS phrase “Jesus makes it possible for us to be saved” and think they mean the same thing as the Christian does, but in reality they don’t. A proper translation would be “Jesus, our elder brother, showed us how we (through the Mormon church) can obtain our own godhood in the Celestial Kingdom”. Not the same thing at all. Mormons believe that true salvation (not just resurrection which is universal) only comes through their works and membership in the Mormon church, not through faith in Jesus.
Here is a link to a good chart with Mormon vs. biblical terms. utlm.org/onlineresources/terminologymain.htm
Also, there is a tendency for mormons to lie or disemmble to make Mormonism seem more Christian. They call it ‘lying for the Lord’. Here is a post I have posted before about how they don’t answer questions or lie to non-Mormons.
......
The LDS don’t do systematic theology. For years the closest thing was Bruce R. McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine”. Now that has been thrown under the bus because some of his statements are embarassing to the LDS church even though they have not reputiated anything said in there and it was approved by the Prophet and Apostles and published by the main LDS publishing company (an LDS version of nihil obstat or imprimitur). The LDS use manuals, published every few years, on a rotation for Sunday School, Priesthood/Relief Society and their High School and College religion classes. They are also discouraged from researching on their own or reading old ‘primary sources’. Sadly, they are spoon fed theology in a manner that keeps them from looking too deep. My ‘crime’ as it were was going beyond the manuals given to me and actually trying to make sense and research LDS history and doctrine in order to prove the ‘antis’ were lying.
As to why I lied about LDS beliefs (or dissembled), there is a constantly used phrase/idea that comes down from the leadership of “every member a missionary”. It means that every member is to try to convert people to Mormonism. Couple that with the other oftused meme of “don’t do anything that makes ‘the Church’ look bad” and you have an interesting combination. The “why” gets down to these. It is easier to lie or omit things or twist words than it is to explain what the LDS really believe and risk losing a potential convert or have someone go away thinking less than glowing things about the LDS church.
Every member is expected to find ‘investigators’ (people who would be interested in converting who take the missionary discussions - similar to RCIA). There is also a lot of people who hear things about beliefs but don’t know enough to know what the LDS are saying, that they use different meanings for terms, even though the LDS usually know that Christians mean different things. A typical exchange could go like this...
non - LDS - “I have a lot of Mormon friends, and they are nice people, but don’t Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers?”
LDS - No! We don’t believe that at all! Jesus is the only begotten Son of God! Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth. Why don’t you come over for dinner and we will have the missionaries talk to you? There is a set of 6 discussions that they give that shows what we believe.
non-LDS - “Well, ok, but I read somewhere that Mormons believe they will become Gods”
LDS - “That was probably written by someone who has a grudge against the Church. They probably are one of the ones who gets paid to badmouth the Church or someone who couldn’t live by the principles of the Church so they left or they were offended by someone in their ward.
Ok, lets parse this. Notice how many times “the Church” is used. For the LDS it is all about “the Church”. LDS ‘testimonies’ often start out with “I know the Church is true”.
Then there is the automatic denial that Jesus and Satan are brothers. We have seen it here on FR even. Now, all LDS know that their church teaches Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers. So why would you get a resounding “NO”? Because it makes their theology look silly. By stating “No” the LDS are lying to you, but they are thinking “Well they aren’t flesh brothers, just spirit brothers like we all are, Jesus is our Elder brother”. The other day an LDS came on one of these threads and stated “Jesus and Lucifer aren’t brothers, as if by Mary!”. Notice the subtlety of it. “As if by Mary” implying they aren’t physical brothers (which no one claimed). But they left out That Lucifer was the second born and Jesus was the firstborn of the spirit children.
Next we come to what would appear to be a rebuttal to the claim Jesus and Satan are brothers. “Jesus is the only begotten Son of God!” what they are not telling you is that they mean it in a literal sense. Jesus and Satan are SPIRIT brothers (like all of us) but Jesus is God’s physical son, God came down, had sex with Mary and conceived Jesus. So it isn’t a rebuttal at all and the LDS know that. They are intentionally twisting words to make you think they don’t believe Jesus and Satan are Spirit brothers.
Next Phrase - “Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth.” This is referring to the “First Vision” (of which there are several contradictory accounts) and the Great Apostasy. The LDS will tone down things said about other Christians. In the first vision account, Smith isn’t told that other churches ‘had problems’ he was told “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html
“All wrong”, “Corrupt” and Creeds an abomination are not the same as “some problems” and the LDS know that. But they will soften it in order to not scare people off or to put the LDS church in a ‘better light’.
Next - about becoming Gods. Notice the LDS response is to go down a rabbit hole, rather than addressing the comment. Instead they lead the person to believe that the source was unreliable, or written by someone who had something to gain (money) or a former Mormon with a grudge. The question itself isn’t even addressed (lying by omission). It also causes the person to think that they might be wrong and that the LDS don’t believe that, even though the LDS person knows they do.
Finally, the invitation to meet with the missionaries. There is an assumption by many that these are people who know more about Mormonism than the average member and that isn’t true either. Most men and quite a few women serve LDS missions (I nearly did). They don’t have special knowledge. They also don’t tell you is the goal of those 6 discussions is to get you baptized Mormon and there is pressure put on you to read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, make commitments and convert. Those 6 discussions aren’t just a summary of LDS beliefs, they are the requirements for conversion and that is their goal. But they don’t tell you that, they make it sound like this is just a friendly way of talking to knowledgeable people about what the LDS believe.
Also, there is the doctrine of ‘line upon line, precept upon precept’ or “milk before meat”, that coverts are only told doctrines when they are spiritually ready to hear them. The missionary discussions are the barest of milk. You learn one set of things in them, and then after you convert you start to learn the rest of LDS theology. Then after a year of faithful membership (sometimes more) you get to go to the LDS temple and learn the ‘meat’ doctrines and are sworn to secrecy (used to have to swear blood oaths).
****
Don’t fall into the trap of equating Mormonism in any way with any other type of Christian (or Christian claiming) group. I have spent much of the last 20 years since I left helping others see the errors of Mormonism, getting them to leave Mormonism and helping them transition into Christianity. The HARDEST thing for them to usually accept is that we can have a personal relationship with Jesus and that we are saved by our faith, not works.
Spend some time on the Mormon threads here and you will see how Mormons cannot in any way, ever be considered Christians or have a personal relationship with Jesus while remaining a faithful Mormon.
I don’t think that at all. I know many Christians who believe it is possible to be Catholic and Christian. Whereas, they do not believe it is possible to be Mormon and Christian.
As an Evangelical I will gladly vote for either Santorum or Newt, but never Romney. And it isn’t a ‘lesser of three evils’ thing at all.
The following article was posted to the forum on March 9.
I mostly agree with you. Mormonism is a cult, period.
Catholicism can be a cult. A cult is primarily defined by who is the prime leader or gateway to heaven/eternal life. Christianity is a cult of Jesus Christ whereby people see Jesus and His Holy Spirit as our Leader. Some Catholics see their priests or Pope as the gateway and that makes it a cult. To be fair, there are other denominations which put their church pastor or leader in the same or similar light as the Pope and that makes them a cult also.
Some other aspects of cults is extra-biblical doctrine/writings which are looked at as equal to or above the Bible. They also apply shunning to those who leave the church. Catholics and Mormons both fill those categories as well. Catholics, though aren’t universal in those aspects, but they do exist in many churches and parishes.
In the end, I know that there are some Catholics who are saved, but not because of strictly following their churches doctrine, but in fact because they ignore most of their churches doctrine. I can’t say the same is true with Mormons, because they have created a whole different thing. Catholicism at least has the basic truths in it’s cobweb of extra-Biblical practices and doctrines.
An easy test: sometimes in service we’ll restate corporately that we believe in Yeshua and in his blood which saved us.
- - - -
It’s not much of a ‘test’ if you redefine saved, yeshua, and the function of how his blood ‘saved’ us.
In Mormonism it could be easy to state but they will believe that Jesus (Yeshua) died (blood) on the cross only so we could be resurrected (saved). Mormons believe the ‘sin bearing’ took place in the Garden, not on the cross and that it only ‘kicks in’ after they have done all they can do (works, Mormon membership, temple rites, marriage, tithing, working on being perfectly moral). They turn Christ into a loan shark, he ‘loaned’ us his righteousness but we have to ‘pay him back’ in order to become Gods ourselves. THAT is LDS soteriology in a nutshell. (and I can give you a great LDS sermon aka “talk” by one of their Apostles that states what I said pretty clearly.
In the Mass Senate race he pointed out that Scott Brown was Protestant, congratulating everyone on being "so post-tribal" while he was playing the tribal card himself. More.
He represents the ugly tribal side of the old Democratic Party.
“And a number of Catholics who don’t believe anyone else is Christian.”
Tell them to take it up with Pope Benedict and the congegation for the doctrine of the faith.
“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”[12].
Freegards
Mormons: yes, Catholics: No.
However I would posit that with the truth in the scripture:
John Chapter 3 “You must be born again”,
It doesn’t matter what Church a Christian goes to, it matters his heart before The Lord, and that can only be covered by Jesus Blood, recognizing of His ressurection, giving your heart and life to Him and personal repentance.
I am a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ and His possession, I am what many would call an Evangelical Christian or Protestant, thought I do not refer to myself as either. I am also a Pastor but a sheep first like all sheep of Jesus.
I think many Christians like myself believe that Mormonism is a heretical cult with good reason it is a religion that leads away from Christ.
In regards to Catholics, like in any denomination there are some who are Christians and some who are not just like in my non-denominational church. Remember us non-Catholic Christians do not believe in purgatory, Salvation through Jesus Christ is now not later after physical death. In regards to the Catholic church (both of them) we do not believe either to be “the” church of Jesus Christ but the church is the world wide number of Christians who have come to God though Jesus Christ and are saved by faith and reside in many denominations and in the one and only true church of Jesus Christ, His church, which has no name other than His. Only God can separate the wheat and tares, the sheep and goats, so we are cannot really know who is Christ’s and who is not among all those who profess to be Christian.
It also seems to me that some so called Protestant denominations may be at least border line cults such as some Baptists who live and teach judgement and accusing the brethren seems to be their main focus.
As far as voting for President, while I would prefer a Christian in the White House, I would still vote for a non-Christian if I believed him to be a good President. Looking at many past Presidents who claimed to be Christian, the claim does not always make a good man or a good President. I support Ron Paul by the way as he is the only I believe can be trusted out of all the current people running including the current President Obama,
I would no problem voting for and supporting a Catholic I just don’t see any good ones running currently who I trust based on their historys..
I note that Msgr. Pope left out mentioning the anti-Evangelical Christian bigotry that still exists in the RCC and with some Catholics in mentioning bigotry. Not trying to pick a fight pointing that out just saying that is part of this whole issue. Know that I, because of my Lord, love all people and my Catholic brethren and where any of us is in error that is one of the things God is working on with His power which is so mightily at work within us and we struggle with Col 1:29. Also many Catholics are and have converted to what many refer to as Evangelical Christianity. Blessings hope I have not offended anyone and I am well aware of the timber sticking out of my own eye so I can hardly see anyone else’s speck in their eye.
Catholics are the FIRST Christians. Jesus founded his church on St. Peter and the other apostles — the first Pope and the first Bishops. I think you already knew that.
And just, for a minute, just what?? if that is true.
There was no word to aptly describe “cousins”, so those realatives were called brothers and sisters.
Mary had no other children.
Aren’t you familiar with the Ark of Old Covenant and how the person who touched it died instantly?
Well, Mary is the Ark (in her womb) of the New Covenant — Jesus Christ. I believe that anyone who would have tried to touch her in the way you are thinking (sexually) would have died instantly.
Read about St. Joseph and how he and the Blessed Virgin Mary lived celibate lives.
You aren’t nit-picking. It seems you know a lot more about this than me. Or else I just leaven it plain old school-girl language. LOL!
Bless you!
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