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Locked on 03/14/2012 11:57:15 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior - all about individual Freepers |
Posted on 03/09/2012 10:46:28 AM PST by Quix
I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.
I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.
And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.
I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.
I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.
That said . . .
I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.
My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.
Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.
As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.
I think I learned that this last Tuesday evening.
Last Wednesday evening at church, Pastor related the following narrative.
She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.
The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.
The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.
On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.
Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.
Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"
Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'
I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.
I’m an Evangelical, and frankly opposed to ‘religion’ because of my background. Do I know what is in Kenneth’s heart? I never said I did. I never questioned his salvation. What I did question is his teachings. His teachings are unbiblical and need those teachings need to be called out and he needs to be rebuked. That is what Christians do when a believer is in error.
He doesn’t need to teach from the Book of Mormon to teach things counter to the Bible. He does not need to start a religion to be a cult leader. Your rabid defense of him shows that he holds great sway over your and that is a sign of a cult leader. We are to put no man on a pedestal, and that includes our pastors. The pedestal you are putting him on sure looks like cult leader to me.
You said judge him by his fruit. I was referring to Matthew, not Galations. And of course every believer should bear the fruits of the Spirit, but again Mormons claim the same fruit. That doesn’t make them Christian.
No, not just people on television although they tend to be more susceptible to heresy especially “word faith”.
You seem to have this issue with “heresy hunters” a term I had not heard until now. I don’t go looking for heresy, but I do know the Bible well enough to know unbiblical teachings when I see one. I fight the heresies of Mormonism every single day.
Thank you. I do this because no one warned me about Mormonism and I thank God that a Christian gave up his job in California and moved to Provo and opened a bookstore and asked his former congregation to pray for the LDS he would meet.
He took a chance and God used him to reach me. He stood for the truth and let God use him to reach others rather than just spout “Well, God doesn’t need anyone to warn others” or ‘let God sort them out’ like we see so often on here.
As you have previously stated...this WAS, past tense, a an understood and 'known' language heard by those of other dialect present at the time, and in their language spoken....it was not some sort of heavenly gibbirish as is claimed today rather distinctly spoken and understood.
Also it was indeed 'a sign' to the "UN-BELIEVING Jewish nation present. Who famously sought such manifestations out of the ordinary in the times of which they lived.
Unfortunately we are living in a time now where people are purposely seeking the "feel good" and mystical "experiences" as the stage is being set for what is to come. Many are wired now to expect some form of "proof" and base their faith not on Christ alone but on that which they feel and the expereinces which often are simply a matter of hypnotic trances and or by their own desires manufacture the happenings within their brains...as New Agers do in their out of the body "expereinces".
The frightening part of this movement and others like it is the physical affects can and do lead to some becoming very imbalanced mentally....and damaged emotionally. It becomes an addiction to have and experience the next "High" and used to "take them away" from an otherwise unfulfilled life perhaps otherwise.
If you note at many of these churches who practice this behavior...little is spent on actually study of the scriptures outside of those picked to undergerd and support their happenings...and why they will usually always refer to the Corinthian chapters and verse...or knit-pick scripture from other areas to twist into those verses. They waste no time in their services on scripture otherwise and those used are often used to excite and stimulate the people along in order to set the stage for the 'experiences' and out of control behaviour they do enjoy and look forward to thereafter.
It's all staged and focused on getting to the place where their so called "Holy Spirit" manifestations, by and via their so called "anointed" leader occur. When in fact it is by another spirit I believe this behavior is being promoted and certainly in no way represents the Holy Spirit of God.
And it isn’t just related to salvation, I have had more than a few times when the Holy Spirit slapped me upside the head to do something. One of the most forceful was to invite an atheist friend who was spending the weekend with us to go to church. The only way I can describe it was a nearly audible voice yelling “ASK HER TO CHURCH!” and a hand stopping me from walking past her (I was headed to another part of the house).
I obeyed and she accepted Christ that day, and had her own Damascus road experience. Not all Christians who are saved have an intense conversion experience or Damascus road (Mr.R did not - he accepted Christ as a child), but the Holy Spirit speaks to us all the time as believers and sometimes He has to get our attention.
I have a real issue with people who think speaking in tongues is proof of salvation or required of it. I have seen people pushed away from God because they were told they were not really saved if they didn’t speak in tongues.
Besides the fact that it adds to grace to make tongues a requirement for salvation.
Your mind-reading skills
are perhaps
under
your putting words in my fingers skills.
I said what I meant and meant what I said.
Where did I ping you to this thread?
The good gift that God gives us is the Holy Spirit
Amen. "And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, HE who raised Christ from the dead will also GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES through His Spirit, who lives in you."
I BELIEVE HIM when HE SPEAKS! PRAISE GOD!!
VERY WELL PUT.
PRAISE THE LORD.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Did you ever read Charles and Francis Hunter’s book on such things? I forget what it’s called. Wonderful description of their transition from hostile to tongue talking, laying hands on Charismatics! LOL.
I don’t recall any making that transition who could do more than shake their heads at their ‘old self.’
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
WELL PUT.
Sooooooooo
where on this thread
or where ever on FR
or where ever anywhere
have I ever said such a thing, written such a thing or supported such a thing?
What is WITH all this compulstion to drag every straw dog in the neighborhood into such threads?
SHEESH!
I hear you Quix - GOD IS FAITHFUL to HIS WORD ALL THE TIME!
Sounds like your mind-reader needs junked and traded in on a new one.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
THX THX.
I didn’t name you Quix, but I have seen it a lot. And, I’m sorry but some of your phrases and comments appear to come from that quarter. If I am wrong I am sorry, but that is how it seems sometimes from someone who generally avoids these threads (me).
A word of caution to all. It is very easy to add things to Grace without realizing we are doing it.
It sounds you went to Him as a little child believing HIM. Obedience is better than sacrifice!
Whats God done for Nana lately ??? Everything..
AMEN!! and AMEN!! But we must be careful, others might want to called us spoiled brats for believing HIM.
There are Doctors of Theology that teach sickness is a blessing from God. In fact I read a “testimony” on that very subject from a DT posted on this forum not too long ago. You can attend (and I have) mainline denominations and they will preach God does not, or may not heal. If you preach against something, you will NEVER receive it.
Before looking at scriptures, consider an earthly parent. Would ANY earthly parent give their child cancer or throw them in front of a bus to teach them patience? Would any earthly parent sit by and watch their child suffer if they had the means to stop the pain just so they could endure some perverted form of discipline?
Please, SERIOUSLY meditate on the last paragraph for a moment.
And yet that is EXACTLY what people are accusing MY Heavenly Father of doing - child abuse. You don’t think the CREATOR of the universe, a God who IS LOVE, could not provide a way for His children to be healed, made whole and glorify Him in their bodies?
If its not God’s will for you to be healed and whole, why are Christians going to the doctor? Why does everyone want to be well? Would they not be going against God’s will since they are not “patiently suffering for the Lord”? And if God is “teaching them a lesson”, but they are taking medicine, treatment and enduring pain, do you think anyone would really grow in faith or closer to God when it would appear to most intelligent people that God is a tormenter, not a healer.
So let’s look at the Bible and answer some of these questions.
Sin, sickness and death are all related. All entered the World when Adam sinned. All were put away by Jesus’ sacrifice. If we are redeemed from sin, shouldn’t we also be redeemed from sickness and the entire curse? Absolutely!
And to answer a question before it gets asked, yes, just like someone can sin after being Born Again, someone can get sick. But it is not God’s will and He provides a solution for both. Repent, receive forgiveness and healing.
Observe:
Praise the LORD, my soul, and forget not all his benefits—who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, Psalm 103:2-3 NIV
Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:4-5 NIV
These are Old Testament prophets looking forward to redemption with the help of the Holy Spirit. For brevity I just listed 2, but you can also see: Exodus 15:26, 23:25, Deut 7:14-15, 28:1-14, 30:19-20, Psalm 91, 107:19-21, 118:7, Isaiah 40:28-31, 41:10, Jeremiah 30:17, Malachi 4:2
As long as the children of Israel were obedient, they had a covenant of healing. But even when sin brought on the curse of sickness, when they prayed for healing, God would provide an answer. The most obvious example is when the children rebelled and said that “God brought them to the wilderness to die”. Their own words were their downfall as they decreed that they would die and snakes came and bit them (BTW - God did NOT send the snakes). It was their words that brought judgement. God told Moses to build a bronze snake (This is loaded with revelation and Truth) on a pole. Everyone who looked at it, was healed. This is a type of Christ and if you get a revelation, sickness will no longer be a problem. (Numbers 21:4-9, John 3:14-15 - do a study on what Eternal Life or Salvation really means in all of its Glory.)
I’m skipping lots of Spiritual food, but let’s jump to the earthly ministry of Jesus. John 10:10 is one of the most important verses in the Bible. Until you understand the nature of God and the adversary, you will have difficulty understanding the source of evil and the source of good in this world.
The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life. John 10:10 NLT
These words spoken by Jesus define the struggle of the ages. Satan’s sole purpose is to steal, kill and destroy. This is amplified by numerous passages - the woman bound by satan 18 years for instance. And all the demons Jesus cast out, many of which were causing physical afflictions. I challenge anyone that believes it is God’s will for people to be sick or suffer to learn patience, to find any instance in the life and ministry of Jesus that would affirm that. It does not exist. He had compassion on everyone. There is no telling how many hundreds, if not thousands, were healed, made whole and raised from the dead during his time on earth.
There is NO record anywhere in the Gospels of Jesus patting people on the head and saying, “suffer for the Lord my son.” Wherever he found faith, he healed. Even when faith was almost nonexistent, love drove him to heal people. If Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, why would that change? Jesus is the Head of the Body of Christ (The Church or all Believers). He does not want a hangnail on the pinky toe of his body. Of that, I am certain!
You know the events that took place throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and curing all who were under the tyranny of the Devil, because God was with Him. — Acts 10:37-38 HCSB
So now we turn to the post-resurrecton period. Instead of looking to the Word for faith, too many people look to the world and tradition. They see Aunt Ethel who suffered with cancer, but was a Sunday School teacher all her life, and they rationalize away God’s will and provision to heal. If a million people die from cancer, it DOES NOT CHANGE GOD’S WORD. If He says you are healed. YOU ARE HEALED!!! Truth is TRUTH.
What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4 NIV
This small passage was one of many breakthroughs for me. God’s Word is Truth. It can be trusted. Even if every theologian on the planet and every dogmatic religion disagrees, I can trust God’s Word. God has made provision for everything you could possibly need and given you the Word so that by faith it is all yours. God will do what He says. But will you trust Him?
In Deuteronomy 28, the latter half of the chapter describes the curse. It covers every horrible thing satan will bring upon those that disobey including sickness of all types. When I read that portion, I preface each part with: “I am redeemed from...” Because that IS TRUTH.
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Galatians 3:13-14 NIV
It would take a theologian to not understand this passage. We ARE redeemed from everything in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. And have been added to Abraham’s family with full access to ALL the BLESSING (read 1-15 for a few).
This is getting way too long so let’s skip to some of your questions:
Job - Read Job 1 so you can see that God did not bring disaster on Job. Satan’s complaint against God was that God had placed a HEDGE OF PROTECTION around Job and blessed everything he did. That’s pretty sweet! Now what brought that hedge down? I am amazed by how many people miss this. Job was operating in fear, not faith. He was continually sacrificing for his kids because he thought they had sinned. (1:4-5; 3:25-26) Job suffered needlessly because instead of trusting God, the source of his success and protection, he was operating in an irrational fear. That opened the door and authorized Satan to wreak havoc. When Job repented, after a whole lot of foolish talk and bad advice from his friends, God stepped back in, replaced the hedge, healed him and blessed him with twice what he had before. There was no glory in suffering. It was done in ignorance and is in the Bible as a cautionary tale as to what fear will allow satan to do in one’s life.
Moses - I see nowhere in Moses life where he suffered illness. The Children came out of Egypt loaded with wealth and there was not a single person feeble. (Wipe that Cecile B Demille image out of your head of a bunch of sick and crippled folks leaving Egypt.) God supernaturally healed them all for the journey and supllied their daily food. When they sinned and sickness came, see above, God provided and answer - the Bronze snake on a pole. During the plagues, NOTHING touched the Jewish nation. When the angel of death came through, the blood of the lamb on the door protected those inside. Interesting. The Blood protected them from evil.
He brought out Israel, laden with silver and gold, and from among their tribes no one faltered. Psalm 105:37 NIV
Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase and may enter and possess the land that the Lord promised on oath to your forefathers. Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. Your clothes did not wear out and your feet did not swell during these forty years. Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the Lord your God disciplines you. Deuteronomy 8:1-5 NIV
Focus on the next to last verse. If God can keep shoes from falling apart and feet from swelling for a whole nation, don’t you think He could cure whatever aches and pains you might experience? I added the whole passage because I want to address the “humble” and “discipline” as sometimes people make these into sacred cows. Humble, does not mean grovel and beg. It means to reach the conclusion that God is your source. As long as man thinks he can go alone, he is not humble. In the same manner, discipline is what we do to train a child. Do we beat them and make them sick or even cut off their limbs? NO! We teach them with words. We teach them how to receive the best in life and avoid the worst. Your HEAVENLY FATHER is a million times MORE loving than an earthly parent. He will not act out of LOVE towards his children.
Hebrews 11? The greatest chapter in the Bible on the power of faith? That is what you are going to use to dispute God’s will and way for us to access all His promises and favor? Well alrighty then, let’s go!
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. Hebrews 11:1-2 NIV
We set the table with what faith is. It is the title deed of our possession, our evidence that God will do His part, IF we do ours. Ours is to believe Him because: without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (Hebrews 11:6 NIV) Notice he REWARDS us, not punish.
And your question about faith can be answered simply by quoting Paul in the previous chapter: But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Romans 10:16-17
Lying in bed miserable will not produce faith. Hearing and speaking and meditating on the Word is how faith grows in your spirit, and how you renew your mind to God’s Truth. I could write for hours just on this topic alone, but I must move on and end this.
Now Paul gives numerous examples of people who were saved from global disaster, had a child past child-bearing years, provided prophecies, were obedient to God’s requests, took a whole nation through the sea that then consumed their pursuers, and “conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies.”
And yet you want to focus on the “others” who did not have as wonderful of a testimony. Have you ever thought that maybe that was their choice? That just maybe they were disobedient and that God had made a way of escape as He did with Paul with warnings about what would happen if he went to Jerusalem?
Why would you not want to identify with Enoch? He was in such a perfect relationship with God that he got his own personal rapture! Talk about pleasing God with faith!
But more importantly, these were Old Testament saints he is talking about. You see the difference at the end.
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40 NIV
Jesus came, gave his life, suffered the ENTIRE curse for us, took his blood and placed it on the Eternal Mercy Seat, and sat down next to His Father and My Father. We are in a better place because we are spiritually reborn into God’s Family. We are not servants or even friends. We are God’s children, joint-heirs with Christ, Ambassadors of Jesus. We have the Holy Spirit living inside because we are spiritually reborn! NOTHING is impossible if we believe. ALL POWER has been delegated to Believers to overcome ALL the power of the enemy! Through the name of Jesus we can do anything.
Behold! I have given you authority and power to trample upon serpents and scorpions, and [physical and mental strength and ability] over all the power that the enemy [possesses]; and nothing shall in any way harm you. — Luke 10:19 AMP
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. — John 14:12 NIV
Dear Friend, what about those statements above is not clear. That is Jesus talking to directly to your spirit. Receive that TRUTH with joy!!!
How dare you mock my Lord and Savior’s will, equating His promises with the fairy godmother or Santa Claus. Take off your religious blinders and receive the GOOD NEWS. Jesus did not come, nor will he receive any glory by us being sick, broke and failures in life. We are charged with glorifying God in our bodies. He wants us well so that we can take His message to a hurting world.
I apologize for the length. This is a passionate subject because too many people told me God does not heal or work miracles. Since I have experienced just the opposite in my life, I will defend my Heavenly Father vigorously against charges of child abuse. And I certainly don’t want to see anyone suffer needlessly, like I did for far too long, or see their faith destroyed by people telling them that God gets glory from their sickness. That has destroyed more faith and chased more people out of the Church than any other lie from the pit of hell.
LOTS of things are not as they seem . . . good and bad.
I try to choose my words fairly carefully most of the time.
I appreciate it when folks seem to notice that.
I have a cleft lip and palate. I believe it is a blessing from God because it made me who I am. How is that different from an illness? My parents didn’t give it to me, God did. To you that would be child abuse, but to me it isn’t.
God CAN and DOES heal, but He also uses illness or disability to teach and correct us. To assume that God will heal you because YOU want to be healed is arrogant and not biblical.
And I REALLY distrust faith healers. I have faith God will heal me if HE chooses to, not because it is MY will. I seek only HIS will not mine.
Repent, receive forgiveness and healing.
- - - -
Wow that is so stupid I don’t know where to begin...
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