Posted on 03/07/2012 10:24:56 AM PST by marshmallow
MINNEAPOLIS (ABP) – An author and preacher popular in Calvinist circles says it is no accident that recent killer tornadoes followed paths that ravaged some communities while others were spared.
“Why would God reach down his hand and drag his fierce fingers across rural America killing at least 38 people with 90 tornadoes in 12 states, and leaving some small towns with scarcely a building standing, including churches?” John Piper of Desiring God ministries wrote in a blog March 5.
Piper, pastor for preaching at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, said it is wrong to ascribe power capable of causing an estimated $2 billion worth of property damage to Mother Nature or the devil.
“God alone has the last say in where and how the wind blows,” Piper said. “If a tornado twists at 175 miles an hour and stays on the ground like a massive lawnmower for 50 miles, God gave the command.”
Piper said he doesn’t know why if God has a quarrel with America that he wouldn’t show his displeasure in Washington or Hollywood instead of places like Henryville, Ind., but that “every deadly wind in any town is a divine warning to every town.”
(Excerpt) Read more at abpnews.com ...
Take an objective look at Calvinism, away from the influence of Arminian heresy, and you may see things differently.
Once upon a time, before anything was created, when God in three persons dwelt happily in and of themselves, God the Father said, "Hey, I've got a great idea. We're going to create a universe by and through you, God the Son, and I am, before you create anything at all, going to determine how every single bit of it, from start to finish, from the beginning to the end, from the least quark to the biggest bang, is going to go. We will create an entire human race from an original male and female whom I will cause to be tempted and sin and, because of that, subject the rest of the human race to untold millennia of misery and suffering and death and tell them it's their own fault, all for my greater glory because it seemed good to me, all the while promising them a means of salvation from that misery I've imposed on them as a result of their sin against me that I will have preordained.
And a really neat thing is that we will tell them that if they listen to what they are told and follow it faithfully, we will hear them and answer them and heal their land, but they won't know that in actuality they won't be able even to try unless we make a few of them do it and the vast majority we will keep in the bondage of sin and degradation and then hold them responsible for not doing what we created them to be unable to do.
And the best thing of all, God the Son, is that because the sin (that I will ordain and set into motion to the very degree and extent that is my good pleasure according to the unfathomable counsel of my will) cannot be forgiven without a sacrifice and since none of them is able or capable or even willing because I will have made them unable, incapable, and unwilling, YOU are going to have to enter the human race and grow up among those, but for the few I will have made to act to the contrary, who won't listen because I will have made them unable to hear, who won't see because I will have blinded them to the truth, and who won't ask for forgiveness for something they were hopeless to avoid doing because I will have made them incapable of doing so and then have the ever loving crap beaten out of you, scourged to within an inch of your life, before being made to carry the instrument of your torture before crowds jeering at you, because I will have made them do so, to the place where others, because of my decree before the foundations of the earth according to my own good counsel, will drive spikes through your wrists and hoist you up to hang between criminals--and the best part of all, at that moment, just as you are about to die, I'll turn my back on you!
But that's cool, because in three days, I'll raise you from the dead so that we can say that this proves you are who we already know you are without ever the necessity of our even creating a universe or a human race and then use faith in that as the ostensible means by which we confer saving grace on the humans without telling them, until John Calvin comes along, that what they think is turning to us in faith to freely receive the gift of forgiveness and salvation is, in actuality, every bit as programmed and inevitable as the majority of the human race on their way to burn and suffer eternally in the lake of fire for refusing to believe that which I will have made them unable to believe since before the foundations of the earth and all for my praise and glory. How does that sound?"
And does God the Son say, "Wait a second, you're going to create a universe with a world of conscious beings made in our image, screw them over in the most horrendous ways imaginable, hold them responsible for what you're going to compel them to do, and then, near the end of the whole shebang, make ME suffer for every sin they ever committed without their ever having had the capacity to decide otherwise, and die so that those who don't even have the capacity to make anything but a faux choice will be "saved"? And that will make the relationship that you and I and the Holy Spirit share right now better how?" or does he say, "Hey, that sounds great and we'll call that the GOOD NEWS!"
LOL!
Oooohhhh....
I would simply quote Paul...
Rom 3:8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.
I don’t think sarcasm was in evidence.
You said that you wanted to be a meteorologist “in the WORST way” and the worst way to be one is to fall into the global warmist trap.
So your observation is wrong I did see through what Pipper had to say and do not appreciate your biased remarks toward a guitar player. May I ask what your hobbies are maybe I can disparage you in some way too.
“”What amazes me is that very few Christians on this seem to actually believe in a sovereign Lord””
Catholicism believes God is sovereign,but we understand God can ONLY be sovereign good and only will good.God would be imperfect if He were to will any evil ,thus God would be moved and in error and lack the perfection of perfect goodness.
To believe in double predestination is to limit God to time where he somehow does not know free will decisions, or even worse, to think God creates life for the purpose of hell,thus sacrificing life for the devil and being subordinate to evil
The only reason for those who think they are already saved to believe that God predestined someone for hell is to think your own personal sin means nothing. If you keep sinning the same sins and think this way than you really don’t love the sacrifice of Christ but rather love the sin more than the sacrifice of Christ
Here is some Aquinas for you to ponder upon
That God cannot will Evil
EVERY act of God is an act of virtue, since His virtue is His essence .
2. The will cannot will evil except by some error coming to be in the reason, at least in the matter of the particular choice there and then made. For as the object of the will is good, apprehended as such, the will cannot tend to evil unless evil be somehow proposed to it as good; and that cannot be without error.* But in the divine cognition there can be no error . 3. God is the sovereign good, admitting no intermixture of evil 4. Evil cannot befall the will except by its being turned away from its end. But the divine will cannot be turned away from its end, being unable to will except by willing itself . It cannot therefore will evil; and thus free will in it is naturally established in good. This is the meaning of the texts: God is faithful and without iniquity (Deut. xxxii, 4); Thine eyes are clean, O Lord, and thou canst not look upon iniquity (Hab. i, 13).
Very good, sir.
Do I detect a note of works in your post that caution that one must not do evil? Why is that? If one does not suffer consequences, then there are no consequences.
And why suffer consequences if one cannot help what happens anyway? If a drunk driver hits me while I am sitting at a red light, am I at fault?
I really want to be a Meteorologist. Is that better?
I figured you’d know what “in the worst way” meant.
I would agree. But what is lacking is exactly who wills the evil that does exist. Since we both agree that God does NOT will any evil, then the only conclusion is that WE will the evil; continuously, freely and completely. This is what the scriptures teaches.
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Jhn 2:24-25 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.
What we see by the comments from many of the Christians on this board is that 1) Satan does it, or 2) it just happens. Aquinas also had a very difficult time explaining the nature of evil except to say that people have the potency for corruption. The real fact of the matter that we don't wish to examine is that we (Christians and non-Christians) continuously harden our hearts against the will of God and run after those things that are unholy.
The question shouldn't be why do bad things happen to good people. Rather the question should be why do good things happen to bad people.
As we see from Amos, God in His love, mercy and grace continues to bring us back to Him through various events either good or bad in our terms. Yet when something happens that is catastrophic to our lives, we question it with "Why me?" or "How could God do this?" We really justify ourselves or blame God, when actually God is trying to draw us to Him. If one doubt this all they have to do is look at the churches filling up after such an event. While everything is good, the churches remain empty.
For Christians we fail to understand that all things work together for our good with those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. Even destructive tornados.
Of course one must not do evil. But are you saying that you will do no evil? Why is that?
Great! This is Catholic teaching,dear brother.
The question shouldn't be why do bad things happen to good people. Rather the question should be why do good things happen to bad people.
Perhaps what we think is good might actually be the result of evil and not good and could possibly be a result of hating God like in the case of someone like George Soros, Bill Maher.Their treasures on earth will end
God takes care of those who trust in him even though we might not understand it sometimes
"Be not solicitous therefore, saying, What shall we eat: or what shall we drink, or wherewith shall we be clothed? For after all these things do the heathens seek. For your Father knoweth that you have need of all these things. Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you. Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." (Matt 6:-31-34)
Aquinas also had a very difficult time explaining the nature of evil
Perhaps you should read more Aquinas,Harly
From Saint Thomas Aquinas..(you might want to read more than once to get the gist of what's being said so brilliantly)
Every cause is either material, formal, efficient, or final. But evil can be neither matter nor form: for it has been shown that both actual being and potential being is good. In like manner evil cannot be an efficient cause, since everything acts according as it is actually and has a form. Nor can it be a final cause, since it is beside the intention . Evil therefore cannot be the cause of anything; and therefore, if there be any cause of evil, it must be caused by good.
But since good and evil are opposites, and one opposite cannot be cause of another except accidentally, it follows that good cannot be the active cause of evil except accidentally. In physics, this accident may happen either on the part of the agent or on the part of the effect. On the part of the agent, when the agent suffers from a lack of power, whence it follows that the action is defective and the effect deficient. But to an agent, as such, it is quite an accident to suffer from a lack of power: for an agent does not act inasmuch as power is lacking to him, but according as he has anything of power. Thus then evil is caused accidentally on the part of the agent, inasmuch as the agent runs short of power: therefore it is said that evil has not got an efficient cause, but a deficient cause, because evil does not follow from an efficient cause except in so far as it is deficient in power, and in this respect is is not efficient. It comes to the same thing if the defect of the action and effect arises from some defect of the instrument, or of any other thing requisite for the agent's action, as when motive power produces halting through crookedness of the shin-bone: for the agent acts by both the power and the instrument. On the part of the effect evil is caused accidentally as well in respect of the matter of the effect as also in respect of its form. For if the matter is indisposed to receive the impression of the agent, some defect must follow in the effect. Nor is it imputable to any defect of the agent, that it does not transmute an indisposed matter to a perfect act: for the power of every natural agent is determined according to the limit of its nature; and its failure to transcend that cannot be brought in against it as a defect in power: such defect can then only be argued when it falls short of the measure of power due to it by nature. On the part of the form of the effect evil is accidentally incident, inasmuch as one form necessarily involves the privation of another form, and with the production of one thing there must needs ensue the destruction of another. But this evil does not belong to the effect intended by the agent, but attaches to something else. In the processes of nature therefore evil is caused by good only accidentally. The same is the case also in the processes of art: for art in its operation imitates nature, and is at fault in the same way as nature.
But in moral matters the case seems to be different. For a flaw in morals does not follow from any lack of power, seeing that weakness either entirely removes, or at least diminishes, moral reprehensibleness: for weakness does not deserve the punishment which is due to fault, but rather compassion and indulgence: to be blameworthy, a point of conduct must be a voluntary act, not an inevitable necessity. On careful consideration we find that the case of morals is in some respects like, in some respects unlike the case of physics. The unlikeness consists in this, that a moral fault is viewed as consisting in the action alone, not in any effect produced: for moral virtues are not effective, but active, while arts are effective; and therefore it has been said that art is at fault in the same way as nature. Moral evil therefore is not estimated according to the matter and form of the effect, but follows simply from the agent. Now in moral actions there are found in orderly enumeration four active principles. One principle is the executive power, namely, the motor power which moves the limbs to execute the command of the will. This power is moved by the will, and so the will is another principle. The will is moved by the judgement of the apprehensive faculty, which judges the particular thing proposed to be good or bad. -- good and bad being the (formal) objects of the will, the one object of seeking, the other of avoidance. Lastly, the apprehensive faculty is moved by the thing apprehended. The first active principle then in moral actions is the thing apprehended; the second is the apprehensive faculty; the third is the will; the fourth is motor power which executes the command of reason. But the act of the executive power already presupposes moral good or evil;* for these exterior acts bear a moral character only in so far as they are voluntary. Hence if the act of the will is good, the exterior act will also be called good; and evil, if the volition is evil. It would be no point of moral badness for the exterior act to fail by some defect unconnected with the will: thus lameness is not a moral but a natural blemish. Such a lack of executive power diminishes, if it does not totally excuse from, moral blemish. Again, the act whereby the object moves the apprehensive faculty is exempt from moral blemish: for it is according to the order of nature that what is visible affects the sight, and every object affects the corresponding passive potentiality. Even the act of the apprehensive faculty, considered in itself, is nowise morally blameworthy, as we see that any defect in it excuses from or diminishes moral blame, like the lack of executive power: for infirmity and ignorance alike excuse from sin, or diminish it. It remains then that moral blameworthiness is found first and foremost in the act of the will alone; and reasonably so, since an act is called 'moral' from being voluntary. In the act of the will then is to be sought the root and origin of what in the moral order is sin.
But this investigation leads us into an apparent difficulty. On the understanding that defect in an act arises from some defect in the principle of action, some defect in the will must be presupposed before there can be any moral fault. If this defect is natural, it is ever inherent in the will; and the consequence is that the will must always do wrong in action, a consequence proved false by the fact of there being such things as acts of virtue. On the other hand, if the defect is voluntary, that is already a moral fault, the cause of which must stand over for further enquiry; and so we shall have a running account to infinity. We must therefore say that the defect pre-existing in the will is no natural necessity, otherwise it would follow that the will sinned in every act: nor again is a thing of chance and ill luck, for at that rate there could be in us no moral fault, since events of chance are unpremeditated and beyond the control of reason. The defect therefore is voluntary, but not a moral fault: so we must suppose to save the account running to infinity.
Now we must consider how that can be. In every active principle the perfection of its power depends on some superior active principle: for a secondary agent acts by virtue of the power of the prime agent.* So long then as the secondary agent remains under the power of the prime agent, it will act unfailingly: but it will fail in its action whenever it happens to swerve from the order of the prime agent, as appears in an instrument when it ceases to respond to the movement of the agent who uses it. Now it has been said above that in the order of moral actions principles go before volition, the apprehensive faculty and the object apprehended, which is the end in view. But since to everything movable there corresponds a proper motive power, not any and every apprehensive faculty is the due motive power of any and every appetite,* but one apprehension is the proper motive of one appetite, another of another. As then the sensible apprehensive faculty is the proper motive power of the sensible appetite, so the proper motive power of the will is reason itself. Further, as reason can apprehend many sorts of good things and many ends of action; as moreover every power has its own proper end; the will also must have some object and end of action and prime motive, and that must be not any and every sort of good, but some definite good. Whenever then the will tends to act under the motive of an apprehension of reason representing to it its own proper good, a due action ensues. But when the will bursts out into action upon the apprehension of the sensible apprehensive faculty, or even upon the apprehension of reason itself, representing some other good than the proper good of the will, there ensues in the action of the will a moral fault.* Therefore any faulty action in the will is preceded by a lack of due regard to reason and to the proper end of willing. I say 'a lack of due regard to reason,' in such cases as when, upon some sudden aprehension of sense, the will tends to some good that is pleasant according to sense. I say 'a lack of due regard to the proper end of willing,' in cases when the reason arrives by reasoning at some good, which is not either now or in this way good, and still the will tends to it as though it were its proper good. Now this lack of due regard is voluntary: for it is in the power of the will to will and not to will: it is likewise in its power to direct reason actually to consider or to cease from considering, or to consider this or that.* Still this failure of due consideration is not a moral evil: for, consideration or no consideration, or whatever the consideration be on reason's part, there is not sin until the will comes to tend to some undue end, which then is an act of will. -- Thus it remains true that in moral as well as in physical actions, evil is not caused by good except accidentally.
How's your son doing in college?
My youngest daughter is in her final semester and graduates this year. I feel like I just got a raise in income!;-)
Here is the link to Jacques Maritain Center -Saint Thomas Aquinas, complements of Notre Dame University.
http://www2.nd.edu/Departments//Maritain/etext/gc.htm
I think you might enjoy this
All things that comes to us is from the Lord and is good for instruction, reproof and correction. Our problem is that we simply don't view it that way many times. Joseph's brothers thought Joseph would retaliate on them for selling him into slavery. Joseph was wise enough to see God's providence that though his brothers meant it for evil, God meant it for good. That one result of an evil act saved countless number of people including Israel.
and could possibly be a result of hating God like in the case of someone like George Soros, Bill Maher.Their treasures on earth will end
Had we know Paul before he became a Christian we might have said the same. It's difficult to know the plan of God. But you're right; they will be held accountable.
Thus then evil is caused accidentally on the part of the agent,...Thus it remains true that in moral as well as in physical actions, evil is not caused by good except accidentally. ...from St. Aquinas posted above
According to St. Aquinas evil cannot happen except "accidentally". One would hardly think every action (or even some actions) of Satan is accidental so Aquinas' hypothesis falls flat. Moreover, the scriptures never teaches evil is a result of trying to do good gone horribly wrong. Certainly in the case of Joseph's brothers they deliberately intended evil and they knew it. There wasn't an, "OOPS, we sold our brother into slavery." moment. But God knew best and how to make a wrongful act turn into a historic teaching and opportunity moment.
As far as my son, he's wrapping up his first year. He hopes to double major and may need an extra year. YIKES! Another year of tuition.
From a purely Calvinist point of view, why? What happens if you do? Why not, as Luther said, go out and sin boldly? What are the consequences of that deliberate sinning - again from a purely Calvinist point of view?
If man is totally depraved, why not act upon that depravity and enjoy it? You are either predetermined Heaven bound or predetermined hell bound according to Reformed beliefs and there's nothing you can do about it. So why not enjoy the ride to the max? If there are no consequences, then there is nothing to stop you, is there? A difference which makes no difference is no difference?
But are you saying that you will do no evil? Why is that?
I am saying that I would do no evil if I were able, not that I will, if you get the difference. My intention is, as Paul said, to imitate Christ. My actions, as the Orthodox define sin, fall short of the mark, however, as anyone who knows me, knows...
Harley,it does not seem you read the whole thing- the first cause which is always God is good and evil is not a nature or essence so evil is always an accident that is caused by the will against the first cause. This does not mean that someone does not know they are willfully sinning either.Sometimes we sin out of ignorance and sometimes we sin knowingly
More Aquinas backed up with Scripture....
Evil is nothing else than a privation of that which a thing is naturally apt to have and ought to have. But a privation is not an essence, but a negation in a substance.
5. Every essence is natural to some thing. If the essence ranks as a substance, it is the very nature of the thing. If it ranks as an accident, it must be caused by the principles of some substance, and thus will be natural to that substance, though perhaps not natural to some other substance. But what is in itself evil cannot be natural to anything: for the essence of evil is privation of that which is naturally apt to be in a thing and is due to it. Evil then, being a privation of what is natural, cannot be natural to anything. Hence whatever is naturally in a thing is good, and the want of it an evil. No essence then is in itself evil.*
6. Whatever has any essence is either itself a form or has a form,* for by form everything is assorted in some genus or species. But form, as such, has a character of goodness, being the principle of action and the end which every maker intends, and the actuality whereby every subject of form is perfected. Whatever therefore has any essence, as such, is good.
7. Being is divided into actuality and potentiality. Actuality, as such, is good, because everything is perfected by that whereby it actually is. Potentiality too is something good: for potentiality tends to actuality, and is proportionate to actuality, not contrary to it; and is of the same genus with actuality; and privation does not attach to it except accidentally.* Everything therefore that is, in whatsoever way it is, in so far as it is a being, is good.
8. All being, howsoever it be, is from God. But God is perfect goodness . Since then evil cannot be the effect of goodness, it is impossible for any being, as being, to be evil.*
Hence it is said: God saw all things that he had made, and they were very good (Gen. i, 31): He made all things good in his own time (Eccles. iii, 11): Every creature of God is good (1 Tim. iv, 4).
Haven't you read about David and what happened after he went out and "sin boldly" with Bathsheba? He ended up paying a very grave price including virtually the ruin of his entire family, his respect with the people, and close to the destruction of his kingdom. His remaining life was spent in constant turmoil. Yet it doesn't cease God from calling him a "man after His own heart".
Jonah the same. He chose to disobey God and headed off in the opposite direction. Instead he landed right back where he was suppose to be in need of a good bath.
We can sin but there are consequences for our actions. Every law that was ever given and every command that God has ever wanted us to do is meant for our good and benefit. When we refuse to follow His divine hand and "sin boldly", we always end up in trouble. But as Luther elegantly stated, God will always brings us back to repentance. We need not worry when we sin-not if we'll sin.
I am saying that I would do no evil if I were able,
And that, my friend, is what total depravity is all about.
I realize that God created everything good. But Christ calls us evil.
Mat 7:11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
This is the fall of man. It is impossible for us to be totally obedient to God simply because we don't wish to be. And without total obedient to all that is good and perfect it is impossible to please God because God is all that is good and perfect. Our only salvation is in the one who was totally good and perfect-our Lord Jesus.
I might add that it is rather interesting that Adam in the garden was happy and content to do the Lord's work. God asked him to name the animals and so he did. God put him to work in the garden and he was happy to do it. And the work must have been strenuous because God decided Adam needed a helper. But when God gave Adam one command of what NOT to do, Adam could not resist but to do the very thing God did not want done. It simply exposed Adam's weakness for disobedience to God.
Adam wasn't flawed and God didn't trap Adam. Nor was judgment of Adam a change in Adam's nature. God simply showed Adam and his race that he has a disposition not to do good. And if you can't do good all the time, then you are evil in God's eyes. Our only hope is in the salvation of Christ.
I really do not feel that the weather is ABOVE God’s control.
God is in control of ALL his creation, whether we like it or not.
I do not smoke a pipe, nor cuss around womenfolk.
Note that I didn’t say anything about my beer drinking :>) or the occasional cigar.
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