How Not to Become a Catholic

Catholic Exchange ^ | February 16, 2012 | James Tonkowich

[NYer]

This is the first installment of how a former Protestant leader crossed the Tiber.

^[1]

James Tonkowich

A little over a year ago my status changed. Having been a Presbyterian minister for over twenty years, I became a Catholic layman. How that happened is a long story.

In a nutshell, though, reading a Catholic author here, meeting with a priest or two there, befriending groups of faithful Catholics, and attending lectures, meetings, and (occasionally) Mass all added up. At the same time, my questions about the viability of Protestantism in a post-modern environment became more pointed and my answers more frightening. The Protestant mainline, oldline, sideline is in theological, moral, and cultural freefall as it approaches becoming little more than a sideshow. And the evangelicals, I believe, are not all that far behind.

This, of course, didn’t occur to me overnight. My journey to the Catholic Church happened over the course of about twelve years—eight asking increasingly uncomfortable questions and four praying very hard and asking more uncomfortable questions.

Again, it’s a long story. On the other hand, how to keep the same thing from happening to you is a shorter story.

After all, for Protestants and for ministers in particular becoming a Catholic is a hassle. A now-Catholic friend told me that his evangelical missionary in-laws would have been happier had he and his wife become hyper-liberal Episcopalians than faithful, orthodox Catholics. Friends with worried faces either ask difficult questions or—even worse—ask and say nothing at all.

Had I left my Presbyterian denomination to join the Free Will Baptists or a dispensational Bible church or to an Anglo-Catholic parish (smells and bells, but not Roman smells and bells), things would have been simple. There would have been a sentence or two in the Presbytery minutes to the effect that I had “peaceably withdrawn” to thus and such church because my theological convictions were no longer in keeping with the Westminster Confession.

No one, however, is permitted to peaceably withdraw to the Catholic Church. Old anti-Catholic habits die hard and so rigmarole, kerfuffle, and consternation were the order of the day. On the other hand, I guess I did demote the denomination from “church” to “ecclesial community,” the ministers from “fathers and brothers” to “separated brethren,” and Protestantism in general from “many expressions of the Body of Christ” to “a bunch of sects in imperfect communion with the Body of Christ.”

Once all was said and done though, my friends are still my friends something for which I’m genuinely and profoundly grateful.

Not that I’m complaining, mind you. The Catholic Church is all it’s cracked up to be in those Scott Hahn books, Opus Dei discussion groups, and descriptions by friends who converted before I did. It is, as I told my wife one day, “the real deal” and I am amazed at God’s kindness to me that I get to be a Catholic.

On the other hand, if you’re a Protestant and especially if you’re a Protestant minister listing Romeward, there are rules you can follow that may help keep you from following in my soggy footsteps across the Tiber.

Let me make clear that they’re not hard and fast rules. Breaking them all with impunity will not guarantee a switch to Rome. I know many people such as the Protestant half of Evangelicals and Catholics Together who know more about the Church than I do and yet are firmly rooted in the faith of the Reformation.

After studying enough Catholicism to coauthor the book Is the Reformation Over?, historian Mark Noll in a recent issue of First Things calls himself “someone whose respect for Catholicism has grown steadily over the last four decades, and yet whose intention to live out his days as a Protestant also has grown stronger over those same decades.” Fair enough.

You could break all the rules and have the same experience Dr. Noll has had or you could break the rules to your own peril and could begin to view the Christian faith, your life, time, space, and the whole physical world in a new, but oddly familiar light. Perhaps I can seer you around all this.

For Catholics, let me strongly encourage you to break all the rules early and often. After all, why should the “converts” have all the fun? Rule #1: Assume that all Catholics are idiots.

When I say assume all Catholics are idiots, I mean you need to assume all Catholics are idiots. You can’t begin making exceptions because that’s where the trouble starts. It’s a slippery slope from “All Catholics except John Paul II and Benedict XVI are idiots,” to “All Catholics except JP2, B16, Richard John Neuhaus, Francis Cardinal George, and G.K. Chesterton are idiots,” to “There are many Catholics who are not idiots,” to “The majority of Catholics, who, I must admit, are not idiots,” to “Bless me, Father for I have sinned.” Nip this slippery slope in the bud. All means all.

All has to include all clergy, theologians, and intellectuals. In Blessed John Henry Newman’s mid-nineteenth century novel about conversion, Loss and Gain, the main character, Charles Reding, receives a final warning from Carlton, a friend at Oxford University, before he takes the plunge across the Tiber. About Roman Catholics, Carlton cautions, “You will find them under-educated men, I suspect.” When Charles presses his friend as to how he knows this, Carlton replies, “I suspect it. …I judge from their letters and speeches which one reads in the papers,” that is, in the English, Protestant, and, at the time, thoroughly anti-Catholic papers.

Carlton, a theology scholar, had managed to avoid all contact with actual Roman Catholic theologians and thinkers thereby providing himself with the safety of claiming that all Catholics are under-educated and not worth his attention except perhaps for ridicule.

Today that’s what the New York Times seems to think Catholics are prejudiced, “under-educated” (at least), cultural troglodytes and that should be good enough for you. (Actually the Times believes what most liberal elites believe, that, as Richard John Neuhaus put it, “The only good Catholic is a bad Catholic.” They heartily approve of Catholics who reject Church teachings particularly teachings to do with sexuality.)

Anyway, more than a century and a half after Newman wrote, Fr. James Schall, Professor of Government at Georgetown University noted at the website, The Catholic Thing ^[2]:

Few want to know what truth is found in Catholicism. The main reason Catholicism is hated in the modern world, and it is hated, is the suspicion that Catholicism might well be true. To mock or misrepresent Catholicism seems permissible if, as it is supposed, it is composed of dunderheads who cannot argue coherently about anything, not even what they believe and the grounds for it.

On a popular and practical level, this can be done by simply repeating the words, “How could anyone believe that?” with a pained facial expression whenever confronted with Purgatory, indulgences, the Immaculate Conception, papal authority, transubstantiation, or any number of other Catholic distinctives.

Wondering even for a moment how bright, well-educated, and theologically astute people defend these doctrines will only lead you to investigate. And investigation would put you in dialogue with Catholic thinkers in person or through their writings. And dialogue if it is honest carries with it an openness to change. And an openness to change is the very thing you don’t want.

Better simply to assume we are all misguided dolts who desperately need either the New York Times or some Ryrie Study Bibles to set us straight.

 

Rule #2: Get all information on the Catholic faith second hand.

How the conversation got started is a mystery, but to topic was death and something I said caused my companion, an elderly gentleman, to remark, “Of course I’m Catholic and the Catholic Church teaches that when you die you become an angel.”

“Actually,” I responded helpfully, “the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that.”

“Oh, yes it does,” he insisted. “The Church teaches that when you die you become an angel.”

“No, really,” I replied, “Trust me on this. I know that the Church doesn’t teach that when you die you become an angel.”

“Look,” he said become mildly annoyed at the uninformed Protestant minister at his side, “I’ve been a Catholic all my life and I know the Church teaches that when you die you become an angel.”

Soooo… how ’bout them Red Sox?

Bugs Bunny cartoons and New Yorker cartoons teach that when you die you become an angel. Country songwriter Hoyt Axton teaches that you need to be good lest, when you die, you become an angel with, “a rusty old halo, skinny white cloud, second-hand wings full of patches.” And the 1967 movie “Casino Royal” with Peter Sellers and David Niven teaches that when you die you become an angel—unless you’re very, very bad.

But no matter how long you’ve been a Catholic, the Catholic Church has not, does not, and never will teach that when you die you become an angel.

I often wonder what other exotic doctrines were growing in this gentleman’s garden of misinformation. But I’m certain that finding someone like him is an ideal way of exploring the Catholic Church—or something vaguely like the Catholic Church—in complete safety. Since poorly catechized Catholics are a dime a dozen, you won’t have far to look. Some are still in the Church, some are as far from the Church as they can get, and some are next to you in the pew, having found in evangelicalism what they don’t realize has been in Catholicism since the beginning.

If you have a choice, go with the now-evangelical ex-Catholic particularly the variety who will tell you, “I used to be a Catholic, but now I’m a Christian.” Their misunderstandings of Catholic doctrine will probably be mixed with a severe distaste and the desire to prove the Church wrong and their current theological ideas correct.

Odd as it may seem, another good source for second-hand misinformation is older priests. Pick one who still appears to have hung on to his hippy tendencies and who you estimate went to seminary in the 1970s. If you prefer, you can substitute habit-free nuns of the same vintage. That’s the era Catholic scholar George Weigel refers to as the “post-Vatican II silly season.” Priests and nuns who imbibed the silly sauce never quite recovered.

Father Starchild or Sister Sunbeam will feel very comfortable making light of the Church’s authority to define any doctrine whatsoever. They happily disagree with many, that is, assuming they remember the correct doctrine at all. If you’re a conservative evangelical, these two will be your worst nightmare holding, as they do, to all the trendy ideas that liberal Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and Methodists love beginning with sexual “freedom” and do-it-yourself dogma.

When choosing a priest or nun, be careful not to get involved with a young “John Paul II” priest or a young nun in full habit. Too many of them are scary smart, extremely well educated, meticulously orthodox, and better preachers than you’ve heard in years. They’ll cause you trouble so stick with Father Starchild or Sister Sunbeam. Their ideas are outdated, their ilk is literally dying out, but they’re safe.

As Father Starchild or Sister Sunbeam will tell you, you’ll also want to avoid the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Commissioned by Pope John Paul II and written under the watchful eye of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (a.k.a. Pope Benedict XVI), the Catechism is the first-hand primary source of information on what Catholics believe. Avoid it.

First of all, it’s very long, detailed, and replete with Bible references and quotations from the Church Fathers (see Rule #3). Second, if evangelicals Mark Noll and Carolyn Nystrom in their book Is the Reformation Over are correct, you will find yourself agreeing with at least two-thirds right off the bat. Then whatever you don’t agree with, you will find yourself understanding and pondering. “Hmm,” you’ll say to yourself, “Perhaps I should study and think a bit more about the place of the Virgin Mary in the economy of salvation.” And what will come of that?

As Noll and Nystrom write:

Evangelicals or confessional Protestants who pick up the Catechism will find themselves in for a treat. Sentences, paragraphs, whole pages sound as if they could come from evangelical pulpits, including passages on topics such as the nature of Scripture or the meaning of grace and faith. These readers will also notice the depth of scholarship, worn quite lightly, with hundreds of references to Scripture but also citations from early theologians…. Readers familiar with standard statements of faith from the Reformation era… will quickly notice a different tone in this Catholic writing. While covering much of the same territory…, the Catholic Catechism is much more comprehensive. Moreover, it looks beyond the statement of doctrine to the care of souls. The Catholic Catechism is strikingly pastoral in tone. It is in part a book of worship—focusing again and again on the majesty of God, inviting readers to reflect on God’s character, to respond to his love, to live as he commands, and to devote themselves to his service. …Readers… may come to the Catechism looking for information. Finding information, they may also find themselves (as we did) stopping to pray. (page 116) Far better and safer to get your information second-hand.

 

[bvmtotustuus]

We do believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ, not just for ourselves but for the whole world, including all who post on this site. We believe that Jesus loved us so much, that He not only wanted to die to offer his suffering and death for our salvation, He also wanted to give himself to us, His Church, as a husband gives himself to his wife, so that we might be brought into Him. The Mass is an obligation, because it says in scripture, do not be absent from the assembly as some do, but also because if you knew the reality of Who is present at the Mass, and that Calvary is made available, for us to enter into, with Jesus, it would be unthinkable to miss. We do not just gather for fellowship, but primarily for Worship. I really do not think the issue is the finished work of Christ, because even you believe that you have to repent and ask Jesus to save you(application of the finished work). I think the reason you have a problem, is that you believe once saved, always saved. That is the issue, in my opinion.

[Iscool]

"I'm already saved" is latter day heresy. A rotten fruit of the tree of subjectivism and individualism to which many cling.

Sorry, but it's been there all the time...

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The scriptures were hidden from Catholics up until the time of Martin Luther...Obviously it was a 'new' revelation to the lay Catholic until Martin Luther revealed it in the language of the people...

And Catholics in droves left your religion as a result of reading and hearing the truth...

[Iscool]

The unbloody offering He made to the Father is made to the Father without end and forever, it can not be repeated because it never ends.

It ended two thousand years ago...

[D-fendr]

You’re presuming your future and taking credit for completing a race you’ve not yet completed. Neither are you omniscient.

[D-fendr]

In addition, you are presuming forgiveness for any and all your sins in the future, including those for which you have not repented.

This is quite a presumption, it is like thinking you have God in a box in your pocket.

[boatbums]

This does not mean that each man will not be judged on the last day. It means that by rejecting grace in this life, we condemn ourselves by rejecting God's love. Jesus came into the world to save, not to judge but there will be a judgment at the end.

After all is said and done, it MUST come back to "what must a man do to be saved?". Jesus himself answered that many, many times as well as the same answer being addressed throughout the rest of the New Testament. The answer is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." All this talk of judgment, works, acts of love, good deeds, etc. are not ignored but rather put in the proper context. Will there be a final judgment? Yes. It is called the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20) and it occurs at the end of regular earth time right before God creates a new heaven and a new earth and all the evil and wickedness of the past is wiped clean along with every tear from our eyes. The former things are passed away, behold all things are become new. It is when hell is actually created and Satan with all his demons, the false prophet and the anti-christ as well as all those not found written in the Book of Life are cast into it - the "second death". This is the judgment of the REAL end.

There are also other judgments. One called the Judgment Seat of Christ (II Cor. 5:10) where the saved are judged according to their works, but it is NOT a judgment that can result in hell. It is instead a judgment that determines rewards in Heaven. Those that go to this judgment have ALREADY been judged and found NOT condemned. What you so humorously call "getting your ticket punched" is, in essence, what happens to those who are "in Christ" through faith. Let's read what the Apostle Paul taught under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (II Cor. 5:1-9) In I Corinthians 3, Paul speaks about what happens at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is NOT a time that determines destination of Heaven or Hell.

What so many who preach an accursed gospel of salvation by works fail to understand is that we are no longer under condemnation when we have received Christ because he took our judgment in our place by his death on the cross. His blood was shed as a propitiation for our sins - a payment in full - and we have passed from death into life through him. This true Gospel - the good news - is exactly that, we have been redeemed, bought with a price, found in Christ not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith. (Philippians 3:9)

Paul continued in II Corinthians 5:17-21:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Now, I am pretty sure that this is not the first time you have heard these words. But anyone who hears the Gospel and refuses to accept the gift of God in Christ, WILL face that Great White Throne Judgment because their name will NOT be found in the Lambs Book of Life. They will also face the second death which is what happens to all who reject the gift of God. They will spend eternity paying for their sins separated from God. When you said "A mere gut feeling that one has already been saved is clearly not going to cut it at the Final Judgment.", I, of course, couldn't agree more. We are saved when we by faith trust in Jesus Christ as our Savior. God sees the heart. When we have done this, we are born again into the family of God and are indwelled with the Holy Spirit, sealed until the day of our redemption. We are saved by grace through faith NOT of our works. How we live our lives after we are saved demonstrates the sincerity of our faith and a true child of God is changed from the inside out. We walk by faith, not by sight. We WILL be new creatures in Christ, but the good works we do - the love of God and others - are NOT what saves us, they are evidence that we belong to God.

The ONLY way I can express confidence in my salvation is because of God's promises. He wants us to have that assurance and that is why he has said we can KNOW we have eternal life. A true child of God, filled with the Holy Spirit, does not desire to continue in sin but will grow in grace as his faith matures. My confidence is NOT in myself, but in Christ, who loved me and gave his life for me. My trust is in Him.

[boatbums]

actually, i did, and i wasnt disappointed in the usual tired, same old same old excuses as to where this professionally trained minister, who was ‘draped with the cloak of faith alone, scripture alone, etc, etc’, somehow managed to go ‘off the trax, or tracts, if you will’..... amazing when those who come home to his true church, even from protestant theological seminary grad schools, etc, all the sudden, they are declared to be ‘null and void’ as far as christianity...i find that hilarious...

I believe that there are true Christians in the Catholic Church and my comment did not say I think this minster's faith is "null and void". My observations from being a former Catholic, reading the comments of those here as well as knowing many fine Catholics personally, including my Mother who lives with us, cause me to ask that question. The verses from John 10 opened my eyes to the Gospel because Jesus plainly said we HAVE eternal life and will never perish or be snatched from his hands. From that point on, I knew I did not want to stay in the Catholic Church. It was not coercion nor force nor rebellion from God that brought me to this point. It was a movement OF God on my heart and I knew.

That's why I can ask a former Protestant this question. I'm not saying he lost his salvation - something I reject can happen - nor that he stopped being a Christian as a Roman Catholic, just how he could let go of the assurance of salvation that Scripture clearly teaches in favor of a religion that views such assurance as sinful. It's an honest question.

[bvmtotustuus]

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:25

Who is He interceding to, with what? He is ever offering His own oblation, of 2000 years ago, to the Father.

[johngrace]

Good point!

[Iscool]

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Heb 7:25

Who is He interceding to, with what? He is ever offering His own oblation, of 2000 years ago, to the Father.

Good point!

No point at all...It is finished...Once for all...

You might notice that the verse does not say, 'ever dying to make intercession for them'...

[smvoice]

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, WHEN he had BY HIMSELF PURGED OUR SINS, SAT DOWN on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" Heb. 1:3.

Couldn't be any clearer than that. IT IS FINISHED. He is SITTING on the right hand of God. There is no ongoing sacrifice.

"By the which will we ARE sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL...But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER, SAT DOWN on the right hand of God..for by ONE OFFERING he hath perfected FOREVER them that are sanctified." Heb. 10:10,12,14.

[AnAmericanMother]

"Who for us men and for our salvation, he came down from Heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man. He was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. . . . "

What part of that are you finding difficult to understand? (It's in general use - along with its cousin the Apostles' Creed) amongst the Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, and most other Protestant denominations. The JWs and the LDS reject it - so do some Independent Baptists.)

[smvoice]

What you wrote says absolutely NOTHING. It does NOT say He died FOR OUR SINS. It does NOT say that His blood is the propitiation for our sins. It does NOT say that the penalty for our sins was paid IN FULL, and the reason He was raised from the dead was BECAUSE our sins were paid in FULL. And we now stand justified before God because of Christ's finished work for us.

"Who for us men and for our salvation.. says absolutely NOTHING regarding His becoming "sin for us who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Cor. 5:21.

"He was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate". ? You find the gospel of your salvation in that?

Read 2 Cor., Chapter 5, and tell me how it compares to what you posted. There is NO saving gospel in your post. No finished work of Christ.

[AnAmericanMother]

Salvation means exactly that, redemption from sin: Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. For that "he was made man." It's restated in the last clause of the Creed: remissionem peccatorum - "the remission of sins" or sometimes translated "the forgiveness of sins."

Remember also that the Creed is a shorthand statement of belief, affirmed at every Mass. It doesn't go into every detail: it's the anchor, not the whole ship. That's what the homily and Bible study are for.

Do you disagree with Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Orthodox as well? Because they adhere to this Creed - in fact probably 95% of Christians hold to this or to the shorter but essentially similar Apostles' Creed. Do you have a problem with that?

[Hegewisch Dupa]

The Spirit clearly works thru you - you speak on this subject so well, so clearly, so sensibly. Bless you for these posts (though clearly your blessings are becoming obvious here!!).

[bvmtotustuus]

Yes He is seated, in heaven, but as you can see below, He is also performing His priestly service to the Father. He is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, who offered bread and wine. Jesus at the last supper, offered himself as the unblemished Lamb of God. His offering to the Father started in the upper room, where He initiated the New Covenant in His Blood. That same offering continued through His passion and death and still continues in heaven, without end.

Hebrews 8

New King James Version (NKJV)

The New Priestly Service

8 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

[boatbums]

Don't stop there, remember there are no chapter and verse separations, they were added by the translaters for ease of use. Let's look at the next passage after the one from Hebrews 8 because it continues the lesson:

But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (Hebrews 9:11-28)

[raygunfan]

this sort of thinking about assured salvation then causes you to use the protestant tactic of reinterpreting plain meaning of scripture, for example, when paul says to ‘work out ones salvation with and trembling, etc....

obviously that shows that it isnt assured, but since the plain text shows that, a reinterpretation, or appeal to context, has to be made to shoe horn fit it in to assured salvationland....

notice that in the bible where it is talked of how nothing can take you away from christ....and a litany of sins etc, are given....and the author says, ha, see, christ is overcomes all that....but note, one thing is missing from that list.....the individual himself, or herself, who, having free chosen a gift, can reject that gift later....again, there is no assurance, othewise, we are just robots under control of a puppetmaster....who supposedly gives us a a freewill to choose, and then once we choose, all the sudden, its iron clad....no, itz not, you can stop and return that gift....just like all those folks who claim that when one leaves whatever ‘free’ nondenominational ‘bible believing’ church, well, they were never saved anyway.... and believe me, ive witnessed that in my own house with members of my wife’s family....if these bible believing folks can dismiss someone as nvr really saved in the first place....well, you can have the last word on this....as a catholic, im following His one holy catholic and apostolic church that was built on the rock of st peter....

[bvmtotustuus]

Amen!

[johngrace]

We are not Robots! You have to live the life. Fruits equals New Testament works Not old that Paul was Writing about. He was comparing Old Testament Works Because they were still being practiced or trying to practice. Notice the era it was written.

STOP ISOLATING SINGLE " ONE HIT WONDER" VERSES ONLY. HERE ARE OTHERS. READ Scriptures in Balance beginning, middle And end:

Matt 21: 28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you

Thus, a single one-time declaration of obdeince does not guarantee salvation!

Heb 3:14 - “We have come to Share( acting accordingly) in Christ if we hold firmly till the END the confidence we had at first.

John 12:36 - “Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may BECOME sons of light.”

1 CO 9:24 - “Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? RUN in such a way as to get the prize.”

2 Titus 4:7 - “I have fought the good fight, I have FINISHED THE RACE, I have kept the faith.”

Heb 12:1 - “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and LET US RUN with perseverance the race marked out for us.”

Phil 3:14 - “I PRESS ON toward the goal to win the prize”

REV 2:26 - “To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations

REV 3:21 - “To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne”.

Revelation 2

To the Church in Ephesus

1 “To the angel[a] of the church in Ephesus write:........ 4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you Do Not Repent, I will come to you and REMOVE your Lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

He Is Talking to Christians!