Posted on 02/11/2012 12:04:19 PM PST by NYer
Or Matt. 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am NOT SENT but UNTO the LOST SHEEP of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL."
Not so "beautiful" to Gentiles there, is it? What does your church do with these Scriptures? Ignore them, play them down, or make yourselves into spiritual Israel in order to claim His words?
Who said it? To whom was He speaking? What did He say? And (thank you, Dutchboy) what was the reason for what He said?"
Okay, this is powerful. You have identified two of the cues that tell us there is much more going on in the narrative than "Rules for Christian living" and little questions into which we should insert ourselves. Thank you for your very insightful remarks. This is precisely why we cannot paint in broad strokes through these texts...we really were not even grafted in until after the cross.
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I am pretty sure it applies.
If you mean the assembly which I fellowship with/in, I believe we hold no "official" position. It is not necessary because each of us know that the Government has overreached its position on a thousand matters and this is no different.
"Is your pastor speaking out about it?
Please tell me where you find in Scripture that an elder is to "speak out against the Government" in some kind of official pronouncement?
"Which one of your church leaders is saying that the President is trampling on religious freedom?"
All of them, last time we spoke.
"Has any of your church leaders agreed to stand with the Catholic church in defense of life and religious freedom?"
We stand on the Scriptures, a thing that the Roman Catholic Church does not. It stands upon its own authority to deliver, interpret, and enforce Scripture the way it decides to. No, we would not stand with the Catholic Church until the Catholic Church acknowledges that it has been mangling the Gospel of Grace for 1500 years.
Our unwillingness to stand with the RCC does not mean we do not similarly believe the government should cease from mandating funding to kill children, or elevating homosexuality, or revering Islam. But, then none of the folks I fellowship with voted for this fellow. Why did so many Catholics (your brothers and sisters)? Perhaps you are asking the wrong folks why they did what they did. They are now reaping what they sowed.
That is precisely the kind of thing that the writer of the original article did. It certainly applies...to the msgr.
Peter is referring to the Scriptures delivered by Paul and it is interesting how little attention these very valuable texts receive from the RCC. Specifically the letter to the Romans. Check it out, the Gospel of Grace is painted in exquisite living color.
"But NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." Eph. 2:13
Who were those that who "sometimes were far off."? Verses 11 and 12 tell you. It was the Gentiles. We were strangers from the covenants God made with Israel, having no hope, and without God in the world.
But notice v. 13. It is the blood of Christ that makes us nigh now.
"And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body BY THE CROSS, having slain the enmity thereby:" Eph. 2:16.
It is BY THE CROSS that Jew and Gentile are made one in Christ.
Does Matt. 10:5,6 and Matt.15:24 make more sense now? BEFORE the cross, Christ says He was NOT SENT but UNTO the LOST SHEEP of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. He came to fulfill prophecy concerning the nation Israel, and to make them a kingdom of priests and a blessing to all nations. He was their Messiah and the Savior of the World. But they had to accept Him first. As we know they did not. They, as a nation, rejected Him.
And then we have the cross. Where the blood of Christ is shed for all, Jew and Gentile, and we are NOW on equal standing before God.
Everything that pertains to Jesus Christ's earthly ministry BEFORE the cross pertains to Israel and covenants and promises made to them by God. That's why the Beatitudes and the "Rules for Christian Living" in the four gospels does absolutely NOTHING toward salvation. It is at the CROSS that we find His finished work for us and our salvation.
I do hope you will read Ephesians, Chapter Two. It is an eye opener. Truly. God Bless!
Our unwillingness to stand with the RCC does not mean we do not similarly believe the government should cease from mandating funding to kill children, or elevating homosexuality, or revering Islam. But, then none of the folks I fellowship with voted for this fellow. Why did so many Catholics (your brothers and sisters)? Perhaps you are asking the wrong folks why they did what they did. They are now reaping what they sowed.
I pity you and your ignorance. If the you and your ilk can't get past your ignorance and prejudice your church will have the life expectancy of a sand flea.
First they came for the Catholics and I said nothing because I was ignorant and prejudiced..
Then they came for me and there was no one to stand for me....
Think about it.
I do agree that Ephesians 2 is quite beautiful. I do agree that it is by the blood and the cross that we, Gentiles, are made one in Christ. And what you write about Matthew 10 and 16 is exactly what I meant about needing context. But if any of the 100 questions quoted are somehow perverted by removing them from their context, I’ve missed it. So, I’m left puzzled once again by your intentions.
By the way, I know you don’t mean ill, but you have no idea how tiring it is to deal with Protestants who assume you’ve never read a given bible passage. I’ll grant that there are vast stretches of the Old Testament which are not used in the mass (or by Jesus as quoted in the gospels, or the New Testament writers) which many church-going Catholics may not be that familiar with. But nearly the entirety of the New Testament is incorporated into the cycle of readings at mass, and Catholic devotional resources, so any Catholic is going to be familiar with any portion of it. And it’s rather offensive to presume otherwise.
Well, evidently you have parts of this right...
Thank you for admitting your shortcomings. I truly hope you and the other myopic prots come to their senses.
"But NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." Eph. 2:13
Who were those that who "sometimes were far off."? Verses 11 and 12 tell you. It was the Gentiles. We were strangers from the covenants God made with Israel, having no hope, and without God in the world.
But notice v. 13. It is the blood of Christ that makes us nigh now.
"And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body BY THE CROSS, having slain the enmity thereby:" Eph. 2:16.
It is BY THE CROSS that Jew and Gentile are made one in Christ.
Does Matt. 10:5,6 and Matt.15:24 make more sense now? BEFORE the cross, Christ says He was NOT SENT but UNTO the LOST SHEEP of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL. He came to fulfill prophecy concerning the nation Israel, and to make them a kingdom of priests and a blessing to all nations. He was their Messiah and the Savior of the World. But they had to accept Him first. As we know they did not. They, as a nation, rejected Him.
And then we have the cross. Where the blood of Christ is shed for all, Jew and Gentile, and we are NOW on equal standing before God.
Everything that pertains to Jesus Christ's earthly ministry BEFORE the cross pertains to Israel and covenants and promises made to them by God. That's why the Beatitudes and the "Rules for Christian Living" in the four gospels does absolutely NOTHING toward salvation. It is at the CROSS that we find His finished work for us and our salvation."
I do hope you will read Ephesians, Chapter Two. It is an eye opener. Truly. God Bless!"
Now here, everyone, is a proper hermeneutic in action. This is someone who is reading the ENTIRE story, catching the movement of the narrative UNTIL it actually comes along and adds us to to the story. I cannot thank you enough, smvoice, although you should be LGVOICE. Everyone on FR should read and reread this entire post to understand how this not only makes the Bible a cogent story, but explains why the Gospel is Good News and not just more "Golden Rule" Law. Thank you, again, my FRiend and brother.
I certainly did not mean to offend you. And I apologize if you were. All I meant by that is that I can read scripture, and then one day some verse will light up like it’s never been before. One of those ah-hah moments. When Scripture is compared with Scripture and it all comes together, it is just such an epiphany. To me, anyway. God Bless!
ping to 51
Sorry, but I don’t believe for a moment that everything Jesus said prior to Acts Chapter 10 applied to the Jews and not to the large majority of the future Church of God. The Beatitudes were not preached by Jesus and recorded just for the Jews.
Was this meant just for the Jews:
7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 Pray then like this:
“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread,
12 and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Remember, we are grafted on to the stock - we are not a separate plant:
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
I take issue with the premise of the article that these are questions “you must answer”. On the contrary, I believe these are questions that reflect our hearts and conscious-they have no answers.
“Why do we do evil?” I like to hear a Catholic or an Orthodox (or even some Protestants) explain to me that. I can tell you why. We’re evil people. And in understanding that we’re evil, we can understand that there is nothing we can do that is good and we will never seek after God. We run from Him. We hide from Him. We lie to Him. On and on. He seeks for us. We never seek for Him.
Ah, my local FRiend, Mr Rogers. We never completed our visit about that elusive “free will”. But, here, my FRiend, you are wrong, again.
Please, read the last phrase Jesus adds (one you even appended): “For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. BUT, if you do not forgive men their sins, you Father will not forgive your sins.”
Curious...is this the Gospel you teach?
Excellent points Harley. You have captured the essence of Paul’s analysis of us and the need for God to do the reaching. And, yes, used the way you have explained it, the questions are useful. Thanks.
Yes. More to the point, it is the Gospel JESUS taught.
"21 Then Peter approached him with the question, “Master, how many times can my brother wrong me and I must forgive him? Would seven times be enough?”
22-27 “No,” replied Jesus, “not seven times, but seventy times seven! For the kingdom of Heaven is like a king who decided to settle his accounts with his servants. When he had started calling in his accounts, a man was brought to him who owed him millions of pounds. And when it was plain that he had no means of repaying the debt, his master gave orders for him to be sold as a slave, and his wife and children and all his possessions as well, and the money to be paid over. At this the servant fell on his knees before his master, ‘Oh, be patient with me!’ he cried, ‘and I will pay you back every penny!’ Then his master was moved with pity for him, set him free and cancelled his debt.
28-30 “But when this same servant had left his master’s presence, he found one of his fellow-servants who owed him a few shillings. He grabbed him and seized him by the throat, crying, ‘Pay up what you owe me!’ At this his fellow-servant fell down at his feet, and implored him, ‘Oh, be patient with me, and I will pay you back!’ But he refused and went out and had him put in prison until he should repay the debt.
31 When the other fellow-servants saw what had happened, they were horrified and told their master the whole incident.
32-35 Then his master called him in. “‘You wicked servant!’ he said. ‘Didn’t I cancel all that debt when you begged me to do so? Oughtn’t you to have taken pity on your fellow-servant as I, your master, took pity on you? And his master in anger handed him over to the jailers till he should repay the whole debt. This is how my Heavenly Father will treat you unless you each forgive your brother from your heart.” - Matt 18
Notice this parable is given to Peter, and immediately follows Jesus teaching about church discipline ("But if he will not listen to you, take one or two others with you so that everything that is said may have the support of two or three witnesses. And if he still won’t pay any attention, tell the matter to the church. And if he won’t even listen to the church then he must be to you just like a pagan—or a tax-collector!") .
Please do not confuse the mercy of God with cheap & easy grace. We are PREDESTINED, but for what?
"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." - Romans 8
We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we refuse and rebel, and reject the image of Christ, then we are not His. If we think we can claim the forgiveness of God, yet refuse to forgive others, we deceive ourselves. The Gospel is to be born again, a new creation in Christ - not to walk the aisle, claim God's mercy, and then despise it in our life.
As the writer of Hebrews says - or is this another passage you believe doesn't apply to Gentile believers:
"Now if we sin deliberately after we have known and accepted the truth, there can be no further sacrifice for sin for us but only a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fire of God’s indignation, which will one day consume all that sets itself against him. The man who showed contempt for Moses’ Law died without hope of appeal on the evidence of two or three of his fellows. How much more dreadful a punishment will he be thought to deserve who has poured scorn on the Son of God, treated like dirt the blood of the agreement which had once made him holy, and insulted the very Spirit of grace? For we know the one who said: ‘Vengeance is mine: I will repay’. And again: ‘The Lord will judge his people’. Truly it is a terrible thing for a man who has done this to fall into the hands of the living God!" - Hebrews 10
That obviously does not apply to one sin, just as the teaching of Jesus about forgiveness doesn't apply to one case of not forgiving someone. But those who claim the grace of God saves them, but who spurn it in their lives, living in bitterness, hatred & refusing to forgive, have lied to themselves.
The New Testament doesn't begin at Acts 10 for gentiles like myself.
Indeed, Paul wrote to the Corinthians:
" 1-7 For I should like to remind you, my brothers, that our ancestors all had the experience of being guided by the cloud in the desert and of crossing the sea dry-shod. They were all, so to speak, “baptised” into Moses by these experiences. They all shared the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink (for they drank from the spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ). Yet in spite of all these wonderful experiences many of them failed to please God, and left their bones in the desert. Now in these events our ancestors stand as examples to us, warning us not to crave after evil things as they did. Nor are you to worship false gods as they did. The scripture says—‘The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.’
8-10 Neither should we give way to sexual immorality as did some of them, for we read that twenty-three thousand fell in a single day! Nor should we dare to exploit the goodness of God as some of them did, and fell victims to poisonous snakes. Nor yet must you curse the lot that God has appointed to you as they did, and met their end at the hand of the angel of death.
11 Now these things which happened to our ancestors are illustrations of the way in which God works, and they were written down to be a warning to us who are the heirs of the ages which have gone before us.
12 So let the man who feels sure of his standing today be careful that he does not fall tomorrow." - 1 Cor 10
Or as the Apostle John wrote:
"1-2 I write these things to you (may I call you “my children”—for that’s how I think of you), to help you to avoid sin. But if a man should sin, remember that our advocate before the Father is Jesus Christ the righteous, the one who made personal atonement for our sins (and for those of the rest of the world as well).
3-6 It is only when we obey God’s laws that we can be quite sure that we really know him. The man who claims to know God but does not obey his laws is not only a liar but lives in self-delusion. In practice, the more a man learns to obey God’s laws the more truly and fully does he express his love for him. Obedience is the test of whether we really live “in God” or not. The life of a man who professes to be living in God must bear the stamp of Christ." - 1 John 2
“In him verily is the love of God perfected. He professes to have the love of God in his heart, and that love receives its completion or filling up by obedience to the will of God. That obedience is the proper carrying out, or the exponent of the love which exists in the heart. Love to the Saviour would be defective without that, for it is never complete without obedience. If this be the true interpretation, then the passage does not make any affirmation about sinless perfection, but it only affirms that if true love exists in the heart, it will be carried out in the life; or that love and obedience are parts of the same thing; that one will be manifested by the other; and that where obedience exists, it is the completion or perfecting of love. Besides, the apostle does not say that either the love or the obedience would be in themselves absolutely perfect; but he says that one cannot fully develope itself without the other.” - Albert Barnes
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=1jo&chapter=002
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