Replies

No, Godzilla, we do not teach that the only atonement is a resurrected body. That comes as a result of Christ's resurrection and breaks the bonds of physical death, as the New Testament teaches, "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ are all made alive." The church teaches that the atonement occurred in the Garden and on the Cross and that it is a spiritual atonement and a redemption from sin.

As I said, regarding the church growth, it continues to grow. It is not decreasing.

According to the National Council of Churches in 2008, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the second-fastest-growing church in the United States by growth rate.

The growth of the Church is pretty constant now at about 300,000 per year. This means, as the total numbers grow larger (about a million every three years) the percentage grows smaller. So what has declined for the Church is the rate of growth holdiong between 1 1/2 adn 2 1/2 percent for the last several years, down from 4-6 percent in prior decades. I believe 1857 was the last year the Church actually had a negative growth rate, where it lost more members than it found.

If you look back over the years at the baptimsal records of the Church for children whose families are members being baptised into the church, plus those who are baptised as a result of the missionary effort of the church, you find the following:

If you stretch it back further, given the records of the Church, you find the following:

Putting it into a table renders this:

LDS CHURCH GROWTH - HISTORY

Year	Membership	Number change	Percentage growth
1829	6	6	0
1830	280	274	4566.67%
1831	680	400	142.86%
1832	2,661	1,981	291.32%
1833	3,140	479	18.00%
1834	4,372	1,232	39.24%
1835	8,835	4,463	102.08%
1836	13,293	4,458	50.46%
1837	16,282	2,989	22.49%
1838	17,881	1,599	9.82%
1839	16,460	-1,421	-7.95%
1840	16,865	405	2.46%
1841	19,856	2,991	17.73%
1842	23,564	3,708	18.67%
1843	25,980	2,416	10.25%
1844	26,146	166	0.64%
1845	30,332	4,186	16.01%
1846	33,993	3,661	12.07%
1847	34,694	701	2.06%
1848	40,477	5,783	16.67%
1849	48,160	7,683	18.98%
1850	51,839	3,679	7.64%
1851	52,165	326	0.63%
1852	52,640	475	0.91%
1853	64,154	11,514	21.87%
1854	68,429	4,275	6.66%
1855	63,974	-4,455	-6.51%
1856	63,881	-93	-0.15%
1857	55,236	-8,645	-13.53%
1858	55,755	519	0.94%
1859	57,038	1,283	2.30%
1860	61,082	4,044	7.09%
1861	66,211	5,129	8.40%
1862	68,780	2,569	3.88%
1863	71,770	2,990	4.35%
1864	74,348	2,578	3.59%
1865	76,771	2,423	3.26%
1866	77,884	1,113	1.45%
1867	81,124	3,240	4.16%
1868	84,622	3,498	4.31%
1869	88,432	3,810	4.50%
1870	90,130	1,698	1.92%
1871	95,596	5,466	6.06%
1872	98,152	2,556	2.67%
1873	101,538	3,386	3.45%
1874	103,916	2,378	2.34%
1875	107,167	3,251	3.13%
1876	111,111	3,944	3.68%
1877	115,065	3,954	3.56%
1878	125,046	9,981	8.67%
1879	128,386	3,340	2.67%
1880	133,628	5,242	4.08%
1881	140,733	7,105	5.32%
1882	145,604	4,871	3.46%
1883	151,593	5,989	4.11%
1884	158,242	6,649	4.39%
1885	164,130	5,888	3.72%
1886	166,653	2,523	1.54%
1887	173,029	6,376	3.83%
1888	180,294	7,265	4.20%
1889	183,144	2,850	1.58%
1890	188,263	5,119	2.80%
1891	195,445	7,182	3.81%
1892	200,961	5,516	2.82%
1893	214,534	13,573	6.75%
1894	222,369	7,835	3.65%
1895	231,116	8,747	3.93%
1896	241,427	10,311	4.46%
1897	255,736	14,309	5.93%
1898	267,251	11,515	4.50%
1899	271,681	4,430	1.66%
1900	283,765	12,084	4.45%
1901	292,931	9,166	3.23%
1902	299,105	6,174	2.11%
1903	304,901	5,796	1.94%
1904	324,289	19,388	6.36%
1905	332,048	7,759	2.39%
1906	345,014	12,966	3.90%
1907	357,913	12,899	3.74%
1908	371,472	13,559	3.79%
1909	377,279	5,807	1.56%
1910	398,478	21,199	5.62%
1911	407,291	8,813	2.21%
1912	417,555	10,264	2.52%
1913	431,607	14,052	3.37%
1914	454,718	23,111	5.35%
1915	466,238	11,520	2.53%
1916	477,321	11,083	2.38%
1917	488,038	10,717	2.25%
1918	495,962	7,924	1.62%
1919	507,961	11,999	2.42%
1920	525,987	18,026	3.55%
1921	548,803	22,816	4.34%
1922	566,358	17,555	3.20%
1923	575,896	9,538	1.68%
1924	597,861	21,965	3.81%
1925	613,572	15,711	2.63%
1926	623,909	10,337	1.68%
1927	644,745	20,836	3.34%
1928	655,686	10,941	1.70%
1929	663,652	7,966	1.21%
1930	670,017	6,365	0.96%
1931	688,435	18,418	2.75%
1932	703,949	15,514	2.25%
1933	717,619	13,670	1.94%
1934	730,738	13,119	1.83%
1935	746,384	15,646	2.14%
1936	760,690	14,306	1.92%
1937	767,752	7,062	0.93%
1938	784,764	17,012	2.22%
1939	803,528	18,764	2.39%
1940	862,664	59,136	7.36%
1941	892,080	29,416	3.41%
1942	917,715	25,635	2.87%
1943	937,050	19,335	2.11%
1944	954,004	16,954	1.81%
1945	979,454	25,450	2.67%
1946	996,505	17,051	1.74%
1947	1,016,170	19,665	1.97%
1948	1,041,970	25,800	2.54%
1949	1,078,671	36,701	3.52%
1950	1,111,314	32,643	3.03%
1951	1,147,157	35,843	3.23%
1952	1,189,053	41,896	3.65%
1953	1,246,362	57,309	4.82%
1954	1,302,240	55,878	4.48%
1955	1,357,274	55,034	4.23%
1956	1,416,731	59,457	4.38%
1957	1,488,314	71,583	5.05%
1958	1,555,799	67,485	4.53%
1959	1,616,088	60,289	3.88%
1960	1,693,180	77,092	4.77%
1961	1,823,661	130,481	7.71%
1962	1,965,786	142,125	7.79%
1963	2,117,451	151,665	7.72%
1964	2,234,916	117,465	5.55%
1965	2,395,932	161,016	7.20%
1966	2,480,899	84,967	3.55%
1967	2,614,340	133,441	5.38%
1968	2,684,073	69,733	2.67%
1969	2,807,456	123,383	4.60%
1970	2,930,810	123,354	4.39%
1971	3,090,953	160,143	5.46%
1972	3,218,908	127,955	4.14%
1973	3,306,658	87,750	2.73%
1974	3,409,987	103,329	3.12%
1975	3,572,202	162,215	4.76%
1976	3,742,749	170,547	4.77%
1977	3,969,220	226,471	6.05%
1978	4,166,854	197,634	4.98%
1979	4,404,121	237,267	5.69%
1980	4,639,822	235,701	5.35%
1981	4,920,449	280,627	6.05%
1982	5,162,619	242,170	4.92%
1983	5,351,724	189,105	3.66%
1984	5,641,054	289,330	5.41%
1985	5,919,483	278,429	4.94%
1986	6,166,974	247,491	4.18%
1987	6,394,314	227,340	3.69%
1988	6,721,210	326,896	5.11%
1989	7,308,444	587,234	8.74%
1990	7,761,179	452,735	6.19%
1991	8,089,848	328,669	4.23%
1992	8,404,087	314,239	3.88%
1993	8,689,168	285,081	3.39%
1994	9,024,368	335,200	3.86%
1995	9,338,859	314,491	3.48%
1996	9,692,441	353,582	3.79%
1997	10,071,783	379,342	3.91%
1998	10,354,241	282,458	2.80%
1999	10,752,986	398,745	3.85%
2000	11,068,861	315,875	2.94%
2001	11,394,522	325,661	2.94%
2002	11,721,548	327,026	2.87%
2003	11,985,254	263,706	2.25%
2004	12,275,822	290,568	2.42%
2005	12,560,869	285,047	2.32%
2006	12,868,606	307,737	2.45%
2007	13,193,999	325,393	2.53%
2008	13,508,509	314,510	2.38%
2009	13,824,854	316,345	2.34%
2010	14,131,467	306,613	2.22%

Finally, here is a link to a talk given by an Evangelical leader in the Tabernacle in Salt Lake in 2004 (I believe). He is a part of a group, Standing Together, seeking to try and promote understanding and dailogue, despite his disagreements with various doctrines:

An Evangelical Leader Speaks in the Tabernacle

IMHO, such efforts on both sides help us work together and understand each other better.

Have a good evening.

As I said, regarding the church growth, it continues to grow. It is not decreasing. According to the National Council of Churches in 2008, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the second-fastest-growing church in the United States by growth rate.

Jeff, even if we were to concede your older stats, that's what they are...older stats.

You know the number of Lds missionaries dropped off from about 60,000 to 52,000 several years ago -- about a 15% drop.

And look what came out about 10 days ago:
* Number of faithful Mormons rapidly declining (Salt Lake City ABC 4 News)
* Mormons opening up in an Internet world [& Losing members accordingly] [Mormon church owned Deseret News]
* Special report -Mormonism besieged by the modern age [Lds church is hemorrhaging in member losses] [Reuters]

Marlin K. Jensen, among the Top 16 in the Lds General Authority hierarchy, is in fact the very source cited in all three of the above articles.

ALL: An Lds general authority has more up-to-date stats that what Jeff has cited.

The above three articles coupled with other sources show that Mormons are losing members in at least THREE primary areas:

(1) Per the Reuters article linked above:
...census data from some foreign countries...show that the retention rate for their converts is as low as 25 percent.

(2) From the SLC ABC source linked above: Elder Jensen told the news outlet times have changed, and "attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years." Some church members ABC 4 talked to said they see the faithful leaving. ... From the DesNews article linked above: He began to hear the same thing from ordinary Mormons who had friends or family who were having problems. He also heard from people at BYU how it was a problem there as well. People were encountering things about church history and losing their faith...

IOW...it's not the "fringe" Mormons described above. We're talking about BYU/"ordinary" Mormons -- "the faithful" -- who are leaving in droves.

(3) Young adult Mormon males: ...according to a recent survey from Trinity College called “Mormons in the United States, 1990-2008” (Salt Lake Tribune, 12/15, p. A1), there appear to be many more Mormon women than Mormon men in the state of Utah. Consider these statistics: In 1990, a total of 53 percent of the Mormons in Utah were females (55% in the rest of the country). Eighteen years later, though, in 2008, there were 60% LDS females in Utah compared to 40% males (52% in the rest of the country). In other words, if you’re female in Utah, there’s a good possibility you will be sitting home on Saturday night. Imagine, this equals three women for every two men in Utah. Go to a Saturday night dance and there are 60 girls to only 40 boys.
Source: Two men for every three women? [Utah social ratios enough to re-institute polygamy?]

The event, dubbed an "Evening of Friendship," was organized by Standing Together, a network of 100 evangelical churches trying to improve relations with members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

For GOD's sake; WHY????

What has Darkness to do with LIGHT?

IMHO, such efforts on both sides help us work together and understand each other better.

WHAT?

What's to 'understand'?

We KNOW what MORMONism is built upon and we KNOW what MORMONism thinks of Christianity!

Begone, Foul Demons!

KJV

Galatians 1:6-9

6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

ANYBODY???

Like this fine looking fellow???

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Like THESE guys??

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Ephesians 2:1-2

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The growth of the Church is pretty constant now at about 300,000 per year.

The new federal study reported that Utah's "fertility rate" -- the number of live births per 1,000 women ages 15 to 44 -- was 93.1.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html

Lessee...

14 million total... half women... half of those between 15-44 = 3,500,000

3,500,000* 93.1/1000 = 325,850 OOps!

Yup... the COJCOLDS is REALLY 'growing all right!!!

The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.

Jeff, when a religion denies fundamental definitions of the Identity of Jesus Christ, it is unacceptable, which simply means that I can't receive, accept, believe, or agree with their teachings.

Please seek the truth of the True Christ.

No, Godzilla, we do not teach that the only atonement is a resurrected body.

Jeff - the passage from GP states that - it goes no farther. You NT citation is cherry picked in that the context is that only believers are made alive.

As I said, regarding the church growth, it continues to grow. It is not decreasing.

It grows, latest studies indicate by BIC, not so much converts. As I pointed out, mormons are leaving the church recently in droves worse than ever seen. Considering the reluctance to remove people off the roster, maintaining names until they are impossibly old, etc, it is easy to inflate the numbers. In a Feb 2012 The Christian Post article, mormonism trails a number of other churches with a weak 1.42% growth. Factor in your own GA's admission that retention rates of 25% yields an even lower growth rate. SLC Trib reports shrinking missions and difficulties gaining converts.

If one would look at the table you posted all is not well in zion. Here is the last couple of decades

Growth has dropped from 4.45% down to 1.93% in 2010 and as I noted before, 2011 growth decreased further to 1.42% In fact, since at least 2006, many other denominations have been growing faster than mormonism.

Add that to the recognized ACTIVE rate of less than 50% - well, so much for the lds growth being a sign of God's blessing.

The growth of the Church is pretty constant now at about 300,000 per year.

Only over stated by 100,000 Jeff, look at your own chart. You've not been at or above 300K since 1999, and the trend is downward, not steady.

If you look back over the years at the baptimsal records of the Church for children whose families are members being baptised into the church, plus those who are baptised as a result of the missionary effort of the church, you find the following:

Mormon social science website reinforces my points - with only a 20-50% retention rate, that continues to drop. Further from the same site, a study actually shows a net decrease in people exiting versus those baptized

http://www.mormonsocialscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/US-LDS-Membership-Balance-Sheet_0.xls

Your charts and figures don't show these realities Jeff. There is little doubt in that you GA's statements on the mass exodus from mormonism is making serious inroads into polytheistic mormonism. I leave you with the word from YOUR leadership -

Church historian Elder Marlin K. Jensen attended a Q&A set up by Phil Barlow at Utah State University. He was asked the following question.
"Has the church seen the effects of Google on membership? It seems like the people who I talk to about church history are people who find out and leave quickly. Is the church aware of that problem? What about the people who are already leaving in droves?"

As I said, regarding the church growth, it continues to grow. It is not decreasing.

Oh??

http://mormonism-unveiled.blogspot.com/2012/01/elder-marlin-k-jensen-confirms-mormon.html

"According to the National Council of Churches in 2008, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the second-fastest-growing church in the United States by growth rate. "

Of course, these numbers are always self-reported Jeff, and NEVER verified. They count people who are members who never attend anymore. They count people until age 100 who are dead.

The truth, based on other sources is that there is a hole in the bottom of the bucket. You fill the top, counting every drop, and ignore all that leaks out the bottom as people learn the whole truth.

What truth, some may ask?

Mormon Cult Deception Method:

1. Convince you of their sincerity
2. Trick you into expressing faith first in the Book of Mormon by praying and asking for a sign (this takes you off the objective ground of Biblical truth and puts you into subjective ground of feelings - where you will have to forever remain to stay in mormonism.)
3. Convince you that the Bible has errors in its translation - though they won't tell you what is an error...
4. Trick you into expressing faith in the prophet Joseph Smith - totally based on feelings and not facts, evidence or logic
5. Trick you into expressing faith in the Restoration of the “Gospel” - totally made up need and a contradiction of the Bible's promises to the Church (see Galatians Chapter one)
6. Get you all the way into the baptismal font...

..........................................................

7. ONLY THEN... you will learn the true DEVIANT doctrines of
Mormonism. At this point, it is too late! You only have
feelings as a basis of truth! You will believe anything.

..........................................................

Such as the following “truths” taught in mormonism ...

The 3 Mormon Earth gods:

... The mormon “Heavenly Father” used to be a man, but became God. You will have to swallow that God could sin!
... The Jesus of mormonism was a created spirit being who became one of the three mormon earth gods
... The mormonic Holy Spirit is also a created spirit being. He doesn’t have a body because he is on probation! Yes, he was naughty. He sinned.

... In short, the mormon earth gods are sinful, created spirit beings. But there is more...

The FOURTH Mormon Earth God (plus 5th, 6th, 7th, etc.):

...The Mormon Heavenly Mother God

Yes, sadly, believe it or not, it turns out there is a mormonic “Mother God”

... SHE and the father god have celestial sex and produce offspring continually
... SHE is eternally pregnant
... SHE pops out spirit children who will some day get a human body on earth
... SHE is probably not alone. Mormons still believe and teach eternal polygamy.

The Mormonic Pantheon of gods:

... There are BILLIONS or TRILLIONS of mormon gods on other planets.
Hindus have approximately 350 million gods. They are
pikers compared to mormons.

How do they get so many gods? They manufacture more all the
time:

... Any mormon male can be a God with his own planet, plural mother goddesses, and spirit kids to worship him.
... Becoming a mormon god means lots of works to attain the god-level. This is why you see mormons working so hard. Now you know why.
... Speaking of levels, heaven has three levels.
... All the trillions of gods in the mormon pantheon get together regularly over spring break in Kolob Beach to “counsel together”

What will your life be like as a mormon?

... you have to give 10%?
... You will give up the total sufficiency of the death of Christ for your sins and rely on your own "worthiness" - which the Bible calls "filthy rags"
... your bishop is there to ask if you gave your FULL tithe
... your bishop is also there to ask many probing, personal, embarrassing questions
... Did we mention you will
... you will have to complete Masonic Temple rituals that involve strangers touching your private parts
... you will forever have to base your life on the false foundation of feelings that contradict the clear teaching of the Bible
... You will have to wear magic underwear 24/7/365

Once inside the Morg, you have to accept it ALL to move up the chain towards Godhood. ... It is nothing more than a Celestial Amway Organization

THAT IS THE REAL MORMON/LDS