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To: smvoice
Salvation does not hang on this question and it is really insignificant in many ways, but since you responded directly to me, here are my responses.

I would have to respectfully disagree on a few things you wrote. The first being the selection of Matthias as the twelfth Disciple as being a human endeavour.

Yes it was human. Neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit directed them to cast lots or even select a replacement. This does not mean they are evil or sinful people. They were doing the best with what understanding they had at that moment. We see time and again that the apostles continually misunderstood Jesus, doubted him and questioned him. As natural men, spiritual things were very foreign. That is why Thomas wanted to go "die" with Lazarus and John wanted to call down fire on a village and many more examples I could produce from the Gospels. They knew the prophecy from Psalm and acted without the direction of Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Do you really believe that Jesus would leave such an important decision to casting lots? Jesus who walked in perfect harmony and obedience even to death, would leave finding a replacement for Judas to a game of chance? Ponder that for a few moments.

Their spiritual nature would be changed at Pentecost and they could better receive and understand spiritual things. (John 7:37-39, John 14:15-20, John 15:26-27 and Acts 1:4-5)

When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth - Read all of John 16 carefully. This is Jesus telling them to wait until the Spirit of Truth comes so they will know what to do.

The eleven apostles had been given authority to act officially in Christ's absence. (Mat.16:19, 18:18,19).

I see no relevance to the current discussion. Both the keys to the kingdom and instructions regarding binding and loosing are to all Believers.

Psa. 109:8 states that another should be appointed to Judas' place.

Prophecy in Psalms does not specify who or how the position would be filled, only that it would be filled.

The twelfth apostle HAD to be chosen before the kingdom could be offered at Pentecost (Matt. 19:28)

This may be your best evidence. Although, they did NOT sit on thrones at any point in their earthly life, nor did they judge the twelve tribes during that time. After his resurrection, Jesus would sit down at the right hand of God. The twelve selected may very well sit down at a later time and not violate the spirit of this verse.

Also note how Peter stands up with the eleven in Acts 2:14.

Acts is a historical book, not doctrinal. As far as Peter was concerned Matthias' addition made 12. But was that really God's will?

The actions of the 11 apostles in choosing the 12th was bathed in prayer. They did not proceed until after MANY DAYS OF UNITED PRAYER. (Luke 24:49,cf.Acts 1:12-15), and when two candidates were found they AGAIN prayed and left the final choice to GOD. (Acts 1:24-26).

NO, they did NOT leave the choice to God. They threw dice, a game of chance that leaves the decision to luck which at its root is lucifer's domain. This is not the actions of Born Again people being led by the Holy Spirit.

Lots of people pray including some religions who pray 5 times a day. But prayer is not enough. Prayer should be two-way communication in a case like this. You need a clear, definitive answer from God and that did not come - otherwise they would not have cast lots. Note how nowhere in this passage is there a reference to a clear answer to their prayers on this subject. And they "nominated" the two people who were the finalists. There is no indication that God was providing any specific direction in this matter.

Paul could not have been selected for many reasons, mainly because in order to be one of the 12, to qualify for a disciple one had to have followed Christ from the beginning, all during His earthly ministry, beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that He was taken up (Acts 1:21,22,cf. Matt.19:28). There probably were not many more than the two, Matthias and Joseph Barsabas, who filled that bill.

Those standards/requirements were set by men, not God. There quite possibly have been hundreds of disciples that followed Jesus from the beginning. In Luke 10, he sends out 70 to minister in his name and 500 were at the ascension. This does not disqualify Paul.

As I'm sure you already know Paul was not even saved at that time. He was busy "persecuting the church of God and laying it waste." (Gal. 1:13.

Nobody was Born again or "saved" until the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. This is the MOST important point to consider in all of this. All men from the fall of Adam until Pentecost, with the exception of Jesus, were spiritually dead. With the Holy Spirit's arrival, they could finally experience the New Birth and be filled with The Holy Spirit. You have to be recreated before you can be filled. They were servants and friends up until Pentecost, now we are children of God and joint heirs with Christ.

Peter himself confirms that they "believed" at Pentecost in Acts 11:17.

Think about the lives of the apostles - Peter was a loose cannon. Getting an inspiration that Jesus was the Son of God and in the next breath, getting rebuked by Jesus for letting Satan convince him to try and talk Jesus out of his mission on the cross. He is denying Jesus three times, cutting off the ear of Malchus, hiding in fear after the cross and leaving to go fishing during the risen Jesus' last moments on earth. These are the actions of a natural man.

Contrast that with his actions after Pentecost where he is preaching boldly, healing the sick and maturing quickly, operating in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The same is true for all the followers of Jesus after Pentecost.

Note also that even after being Born Again Peter struggled at times when he placed more importance on carnal issues than spiritual - the reluctance to minister to Cornelius (vision of unclean food) and the hypocrisy displayed when he pulled away from Gentile Believers when Jewish Believers visited. That is why we are commanded to renew our minds with the Word and stay in close fellowship with the Holy Spirit so that we are being guided by Him, not our natural desires or man made traditions as was the case with many of the Jewish Believers who wanted to force their traditions on the Gentiles against God's will.

Being Born Again is a spiritual process that changes a person from the inside and allows them to have the Holy Spirit inside to guide them. Its even better than having a physical Jesus limited to only one location. The Holy Spirit can be anywhere there is a Believer.

Finally, the proof that they acted in the will of God in the matter of choosing Matthias is found in the fact that the Scripture clearlly states that Matthias "was numbered with the eleven apostles" (Acts 1:26) and that, "They were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:4).

Let's roll with that - Acts 1:13 only lists the 11, sans Matthias. They had just witnessed the ascension with about 500 people. Jesus gave no command to replace Judas, nor did he designate an heir apparent. In fact, nothing was even said by Jesus on the subject and he called all 12 original apostles personally, but not Matthias. But he did personally call Paul.

If the disciples had been out of the will of God in so important a matter as choosing the twelfth one that will one day sit upon a throne judging the twelve tribes of Israel, just as Peter and the others, they would NOT have been filled with the Holy Spirit. Matthias would NOT have been filled with the Holy Spirit if he had not been divinely chosen for that particular position. A man out of the will of God is never filled with the Holy Spirit.

They were living under the law and spiritually dead. They would enter the perfect will of God when they were Born Again at Pentecost.

Paul numbers Matthias with the eleven when he says that the resurrected Christ was "seen...of the twelve" (1 Cor. 15:5).

There were not 12 during Jesus' appearances after the cross because they had not cast lots to pick the 12th as of yet. Paul also says that Jesus was seen by over 500 followers in that same passage.

As I said earlier, this is not a life or death subject, but I did enjoy the opportunity to review the topic and study your responses and scripture evidence.

What put me on the Paul side was a study of the New Birth and then a review of the Gospels. Luke and Mark were companions of Paul and surely Matthew and John had met and were familiar with Paul's teaching the revelation of the New Birth. But the Holy Spirit constrained them from writing much if anything about the subject in the Gospels and Acts. The Gospels were to be focused on Jesus the incarnation and Son of God. Acts was a history of the early Church. Paul's writings (and others as well) would lay out the spiritual side of redemption.

I marvel at God's wisdom on this subject. The Gospels were written so that you would believe that Jesus was the Son of God - per John. The letters were to Believers so they could better understand all that Jesus accomplished for them and what they are NOW in Christ.

When you understand that spiritual death reigned until Pentecost, it makes everything in the Old Testament through Acts a little easier to understand. It also makes it easier to appreciate why its sometimes so difficult to reach unbelievers - they are spiritually dead. They have virtually no concept of sin or a need for a Savior.

I'm getting off track. But what put me into the Paul camp was that Jesus called all the original 12. The only other persons that seemingly had a personal call by Jesus to be his apostle were the rich young man who refused the call (Matthew 19) and Paul in Acts. It certainly seems a more compelling case than people casting lots for a replacement.

That very human act of casting lots in Acts 1 always seemed so against the will of God that it bothered me. It reminds me of so many times in my life and in Christian circles where people have put out fleeces or prayed a "if it be thy will" type of prayer instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to provide clear instructions on what to do. Invariably, when you are led by feelings, chance, luck and/or circumstances (satan's domain) you will flounder. We are to be guided by the Holy Spirit through our own spirit and avoid the traps prepared by the evil one.

Thanks for considering my points.

50 posted on 02/10/2012 1:51:10 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz
Your points are very interesting and it is a pleasure to talk about this with you. Especially because salvation does not hang on this question, it is just an interesting topic of Bible study.

Firstly, the Book of Acts is a transitional book. From law to grace, from a kingdom of believers to a body of believers, from a nation to individuals from all nations.

The Holy Spirit is a very interesting topic here. Read Acts 1:8 carefully. The disciples were to begin their ministry in Jerusalem. Then they were to WAIT, before witnessing, for the POWER of the Holy Spirit to be outpoured on them. Notice is says "RECEIVE POWER" in Acts 1:8, for they had ALREADY RECEIVED the HOLY SPIRIT in John 20:22. The POWER of the Spirit came upon them on the day of Pentecost and Peter and the others amazed their Jewish brethren from other nation, as they heard them speak in their own language. (Acts 2:7,8).

So they ALREADY possessed the Holy Spirit when they came together to fill the vacancy left by Judas. And why was this important? Because of the promise Christ gave them in Matt. 19:28. They KNEW they would be sitting on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Christ had ascended to heaven, and they knew He was going to return to set up His kingdom. (Although obviously, they did not know WHEN).

This is the critical importance of Acts 2:16-21. When Peter standing with the eleven and proclaimed "THIS is THAT which was spoken of by the prophet Joel:" (Joel 2:28), they were certain that Christ was about to return. God had promised he would restore Israel and Joel had prophesied how they would know when this restoration would begin. As far as they knew to this point, all signs were pointing to the eminent return of Christ.

The point is, would Christ have returned had there not been the election of Matthias to sit on the twelfth throne? There would NOT have been 11 Disciples judging the 12 tribes of Israel. One Disciple for each tribe. The choice to fill Judas' place was critical for the day of Pentecost. The day of Pentecost marked the beginning of the harvest for Israel.

The filling of that 12th position was critical for prophecy to be fulfilled. And what was bound in earth was bound in heaven.

Anyway, interesting topic, if you wish to continue. God Bless!

51 posted on 02/10/2012 3:52:03 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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