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To: goat granny

Its very important to understand that God did not give Paul a “thorn in the flesh” nor did He prevent the removal of said “thorn in the flesh.” A misunderstanding of this verse has kept far too many Christians in bondage for centuries.

Look at the ministry of Jesus. If you have seen him, you have seen the Father. Jesus never made anyone sick. If he happened on a funeral, they could not keep the person in the casket. He healed and supplied every need for everyone with faith. John 10:10 tells us the thief (satan) comes to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus came to give life in abundance.

Satan and his demonic spirits are at work in the world today. Jesus encountered them almost daily in his earthly ministry. As Believers, we have complete authority over them in Jesus’ name. Whether you believe they exist or not is irrelevant to their existence - the Bible is clear on this point. We do not need to fear them, because we have authority over them. But you need to understand their methods and rely on the Holy Spirit to help you discern their attacks and how and when to take authority over them.

Now back to Paul’s thorn. Thorn in the flesh is a figure of speech like “pain in the neck.” In 2 Corinthians, Paul is establishing his authority, combating false prophets that have been undermining the Gospel. He even admits a reluctance to boast, but feels it necessary to counter the false prophets. (ch 10-11) Starting in 2 Cor 12, he relates his experiences with visions and revelations. He heard words that “cannot be told.”

God was exalting Paul and giving him spiritual Wisdom and understanding that was a threat to satan who opposes all of God’s work. This wisdom is contained in his letters and lays out the full plan of redemption. Starting with verse 7, Paul says I was given a thorn in the flesh. In the SAME sentence, he tells you EXACTLY what that was - a messenger of Satan to torment me. If you look at the history of Paul’s journeys, you will see constant spiritual attacks against Paul whereever he taught.

This is a form of persecution that all Believers face in life who get serious about the Lord’s work. But it seems to be especially targeted on Paul because of the spiritual Truth he was teaching. Spiritual attacks manifest in the natural world in various forms of persecution - lies, physical attacks, torment etc. The words of Jesus would be helpful here: (Matthew 13 & Mark 4) When you sow the Word, the devil comes immediately to try an steal it. What Paul was teaching, HAD to be stopped. The revelation of who and what we are in Christ makes us very dangerous to satan and his minions.

As Believers, Jesus already won the victory for us. We are to occupy until Jesus returns, putting satan under our feet and Jesus’ feet - Jesus is the head of the Body of Christ which is us. Note also on the Damascus road Jesus says that Saul was persecuting HIM (Christians/Body of Christ/Church/Believers). He takes attacks against his children personally.

Paul’s writing in Ephesians is especially relevant: For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (6:12)

The thorn was not sickness, or bad eyes, or any physical ailment. In the previous post I listed several verses where Paul talked about the persecutions he experienced (BTW - you cannot separate Paul from his ministry). The Lord delivered him from them all. That would confirm that the “thorn” was eventually removed as well.

Let’s look at specific examples of the persecution and God’s grace at work in Paul’s life. Throughout Acts, you see Paul preaching, having success and then comes persecution. Whether its stoning, beatings or prison, Paul is delivered. Now look at Acts 18:9-10 - where Jesus tells Paul to speak out and don’t be afraid - I am with you and nobody will harm you.

In Acts 13 he strongly rebuked the sorcerer Elymas and accused him of being a son of the devil. What was his crime? He was trying to turn the governor away from the Christian faith. After the rebuke, that “thorn” that was attacking his ministry was removed.

And consider the fortune teller slave girl in Philippi who harassed them constantly. Once Paul knew what he was dealing with he commanded the demon to come out of the woman (Acts 16:16-40) who was undermining the Gospel and the “thorn” was removed. This led to their being thrown in prison where their praise led to an earthquake and the salvation of the jailer and his whole household.

God’s Grace/anointing/power/favor is sufficient to overcome ANY hardship or attack by the evil one. THAT was the point God was trying to get across to Paul by repeating it 3 times! Paul had to use the power and authority that God has given to Believers. Remember, we are to be imitators of Christ. What did Jesus do? He spoke to the demons, sickness, lack or whatever and they were cast out, cured and the needs met. And we are told all things are possible if we believe.

Why would anyone think that a loving God would not want this “thorn” removed from His child? What possible benefit or Glory would God get from having a messenger of Satan tormenting a child of God. And if you still think that it was bodily sickness, how could Paul glorify God in his body if he was sick? It makes no sense whatsoever. And if you think Paul was guilty of pride, God certainly would not use sickness or satan to “humble” him. Do you really think God is a child abuser? If you do, get to know your Heavenly Father a little bit better. He IS love and does not abuse His children.

God was trying to tell Paul that he had God’s power in his life to remove and overcome anything. The grace/anointing/favor is sufficient, but Paul had to exercise his authority as a man and command it to leave in the name of Jesus. We see that in action throughout his ministry in Acts (documenting his travels) and his letters - especially the latter ones.

As far as the apostle/disciple argument, I think others have covered it pretty well. Think what you will about Paul, but the selection of Matthias was purely a human endeavor. The disciples were operating out of presumption without any direction from the Holy Spirit - that would come later at Pentecost. They were told to wait for the HS and the power and wisdom that would come, but instead they went in their own direction. Remember, the Bible does record lies spoken, murders, sins and poor judgement so we can learn from the mistakes of others - that is what Paul is talking about in 2 Tim 3:16 - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

Casting lots is a game of chance or luck - do a word search sometime on the source of those two words to see that it is not a Godly act for Born Again Believers. There is no evidence to suggest any special calling on Matthias’ life. Certainly we are all called in some way as Believers and I don’t want to imply that God did not in fact use him in a special way.

But Jesus did, through extraordinary means, select Paul to be a special messenger. That alone should make the concept worthy of prayerful meditation. Paul’s impact on the Church cannot be dismissed as being anything less than highly Blessed by God.

We are all told to preach to the world and make disciples of all the nations. We all have gifts, anointings, graces, callings on our life and fit neatly together to benefit all in the Body of Christ. I see no reason to spend much time on debating who is most important. Jesus should be the most important person in all discussions. Any attempts to elevate a human is dangerous and should be avoided because humans will never live up to our expectations. We are all children of God and spiritual brothers and sisters.

This has gone long, so I’ll end with Paul’s own testimony from Galatians. Dismiss it if you will, but these are not the words that anyone would write without supreme confidence in their calling.

Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead (Gal 1.1)

I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (Gal 1:11-12)

But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. (Gal 1:15-17)


46 posted on 02/09/2012 2:03:44 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz
I would have to respectfully disagree on a few things you wrote. The first being the selection of Matthias as the twelfth Disciple as being a human endeavour.

The eleven apostles had been given authority to act officially in Christ's absence. (Mat.16:19, 18:18,19).

Psa. 109:8 states that another should be appointed to Judas' place.

The twelfth apostle HAD to be chosen before the kingdom could be offered at Pentecost (Matt. 19:28)Also note how Peter stands up with the eleven in Acts 2:14.

The actions of the 11 apostles in choosing the 12th was bathed in prayer. They did not proceed until after MANY DAYS OF UNITED PRAYER. (Luke 24:49,cf.Acts 1:12-15), and when two candidates were found they AGAIN prayed and left the final choice to GOD. (Acts 1:24-26).

Paul could not have been selected for many reasons, mainly because in order to be one of the 12, to qualify for a disciple one had to have followed Christ from the beginning, all during His earthly ministry, beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that He was taken up (Acts 1:21,22,cf. Matt.19:28). There probably were not many more than the two, Matthias and Joseph Barsabas, who filled that bill.

As I'm sure you already know Paul was not even saved at that time. He was busy "persecuting the church of God and laying it waste." (Gal. 1:13.

Finally, the proof that they acted in the will of God in the matter of choosing Matthias is found in the fact that the Scripture clearlly states that Matthias "was numbered with the eleven apostles" (Acts 1:26) and that, "They were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:4).

If the disciples had been out of the will of God in so important a matter as choosing the twelfth one that will one day sit upon a throne judging the twelve tribes of Israel, just as Peter and the others, they would NOT have been filled with the Holy Spirit.

Matthias would NOT have been filled with the Holy Spirit if he had not been divinely chosen for that particular position. A man out of the will of God is never filled with the Holy Spirit.

Paul numbers Matthias with the eleven when he says that the resurrected Christ was "seen...of the twelve" (1 Cor. 15:5).

48 posted on 02/09/2012 3:29:18 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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