Confronting the Claim of Eastern Orthodoxy to be the True Church

hprweb ^ | January 1, 2012 | JAMES LIKOUDIS

[NYer]

Catholic ping!

[deweyfrank]

bttt.

[NoGrayZone]

Why only Catholics? There are many Christians of many faith.

[NoGrayZone]

Oops, sorry, didn't realize I was in the RF. Different rules here apply. If I broke any, I apologize.

[muawiyah]

Oh, my goodness. Yes, I read it all but as I suspected the writer gave away his ambition (accept Papal primacy/supremacy) in the first paragraph.

No suspense at all, but interesting none the less.

The reason I read it was to see if the writer could argue that point without also establishing a strawman "Protestant" who single handedly sets out to interpret the scriptures and deal directly with the Holy Spirit.

He couldn't.

Now look, guys, way back when Carvajal in Spain traded away Schism between Spain and Rome for full authority to send priests and brothers in all the orders to the New World as missionaries, they could argue their way through the who struck johns without referencing the Protestants.

Else, there'd been a Spanish Reformed Church!

Interesting that it took that little to avoid Schism! And that was in a time when Protestants and Catholics were all the rage in neighboring France, duking it out on the battlefield!

Writing has gone downhill since those days ~

A Lutheran friend of mine once reminded me that if the Catholic church didn't exist, they'd had to invent it just to make their own theological positions make sense. Reading this piece I am now convinced it's going both ways eh!

[vladimir998]

Can of worms, meet Opener. Opener, Can of Worms.

[marstegreg]

I am Russian Orthodox. I married a Catholic. During our conversations on this topic we have come to this understanding: they are both the true church because they are of the same past ( before the Schism). My church decided to go in one direction, his in another. They share the same history so the answer is either both are, or neither. A little simple, but sometimes simple is best (at least for us).

[marstegreg]

I am Russian Orthodox. I married a Catholic. During our conversations on this topic we have come to this understanding: they are both the true church because they are of the same past ( before the Schism). My church decided to go in one direction, his in another. They share the same history so the answer is either both are, or neither. A little simple, but sometimes simple is best (at least for us).

[vladimir998]

There was no Spanish Reformed Sect because the Spanish Inquisition was up to the task (Thank God!).

[muawiyah]

At last something about which we might agree!

[Forty-Niner]

I attended Catholic grammar and high schools. The high school, run by an Italian based order of priests and brothers (Salesians of Don Bosco), would often invite the local Greek Orthodox church to celebrate Mass in our school. I always enjoyed those services, and didn’t see much difference between either (save married Orthodox priests.)

[muawiyah]

The Spanish Inquisition focused entirely too much on recent (forced) converts to have helped in the avoidance of Schism.

Remember, Protestantism started at THE TOP, not the bottom of both Spanish and French society.

Carvajal had the power, but he made a deal on behalf of having a full array of missionaries. You might look him up in the Catholic Encyclopedia. If you recall that his Uncle refused last rights before his execution by the new governor of Peru, you get an idea of just how close Protestant ideas were to the Cardinal himself.

[Ken H]

There was no Spanish Reformed Sect because the Spanish Inquisition was up to the task (Thank God!).

That's because no one expected the Spanish Inquisition.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“The Spanish Inquisition focused entirely too much on recent (forced) converts to have helped in the avoidance of Schism.”

False.
1) They focused on whomever they believed needed it.
2) It is simply untrue that the Conversos were all forced to convert.
3) There was no schism is Spain.

“Remember, Protestantism started at THE TOP, not the bottom of both Spanish and French society.”

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. The Spanish Inquisition put “Lutherans” (which was actually a catchall for those who seemed to be heretics infected with Protestantism) on trial.

“Carvajal had the power, but he made a deal on behalf of having a full array of missionaries. You might look him up in the Catholic Encyclopedia.”

Do you mean the cardinal, the religious poet, or the conquistador?

“If you recall that his Uncle refused last rights before his execution by the new governor of Peru, you get an idea of just how close Protestant ideas were to the Cardinal himself.”

Uh, no I don’t since the one has nothing to do with the other. We talked about this before and you terribly embarrassed yourself when you failed - utterly failed - to document any evidence at all that the “Uncle” was a Protestant (actually all evidence shows he was a Catholic his whole life). Remember that? Yeah, it was just as bad a disaster for you as when you claimed their were Vikings in Russia in 1700!

[vladimir998]

Nor the comfy chairs and pillows!

[Wuli]

I would respectfully suggest that the writer of the article go and enroll in an inter-denominational Christian missionary endeavor in some remote back woods in the world, and, after keeping to that call for a decade or more, serving G-d with Christians from different confessions, come back and tell us how serious this question is to them, as a Christian.

[NYer]

The high school, run by an Italian based order of priests and brothers (Salesians of Don Bosco), would often invite the local Greek Orthodox church to celebrate Mass in our school.

While I do not question your recollection of that liturgy, that a Catholic religious community would invite an Orthodox Church to celebrate their liturgy for catholic school children, sounds highly improbably. More than likely, that liturgy was celebrated by a Greek Catholic Community, like the Melkites. My Catholic High School invited an Armenian priest to celebrate that liturgy in our school.

Catholic Church

Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. According to the Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church is understood to be "a corporate body of Churches," united with the Pope of Rome, who serves as the guardian of unity (LG, no. 23). At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Western Church, known officially as the Latin Church, is the largest of the Catholic Churches. It is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff as Patriarch of the West. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes this nicely:

"From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them... Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity" (CCC no. 814).

Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.

To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

The Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15).

A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his or her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole. I am a Roman Catholic practicing my faith at a Maronite Catholic Church. Like the Chaldeans, the Maronites retain Aramaic for the Consecration. It is as close as one comes to being at the Last Supper.

[muawiyah]

You can kid yourself all night if you want ~ they tossed his parts into the fields for wild dogs to eat.

[NYer]

I would respectfully suggest that the writer of the article go and enroll in an inter-denominational Christian missionary endeavor in some remote back woods in the world, and, after keeping to that call for a decade or more, serving G-d with Christians from different confessions, come back and tell us how serious this question is to them, as a Christian.

James Likoudis has written three books dealing with Eastern Orthodoxy. Still available is his book, The Divine Primacy of the Bishop of Rome, and, Modern Eastern Orthodoxy: Letters to a Greek Orthodox on the Unity of the Church.