Posted on 01/09/2012 10:38:02 PM PST by rzman21
Did you read my post 42 or not? If not, you are just being antagonistic.
Good argument point. An individual will use their own reading/interpretation of the scriipture -- Scripture is detailed and has many nitty-gritties that one can get lost in -- what happens if they take Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. and john 10:34 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? to argue the first point.
For the second about them being brothers, if we take the various philosophies being developed in the 1800s -- you have Jehovah's Witnesses who argue that Jesus was created, and was Archangel Michael. The Adventist belief under Ellen G white expressed the same. If you take that He was just an angel, then Lucifer was/is just an angel too -- one little step away from orthodoxy leads to a chasmic fall
it does seem to me that if one throws out the community of believers and praying, reading, learning, worshipping as a community, individuals can make such conclusions as in the Adventist, Jehovah's Witnesse, Mormon, even Messianic Jewish belief (the latter currently puzzles me as Jewish folks shake their heads at these guys beliefs and to me it looks like they are trying to merge mercury and water
Come, serve the living God in the way He taught us — just as we have been taught by Christ through the apostles down to our times in His tradition of the Unity in the Trinity, of His divinity and Salvation freely offered to all, of His message of salvation through repentence, belief, baptism, eating of His body and blood and endurance to the end.
Similarly, Mary, a created being could not and did not create or generate her son, Jesus Christ. She was His mother, no doubt about that and she was also His creation.
Mary was His mother, not His creator, just as your mother or my mother is not our creator.
The reason it is lost is for the same reason we see in metmom and other’s further on the path’s post — first the rejection is of something that the person does not agree with in Christ’s church, then it expands further and further until they reject everything related to Christianity
The reason it is lost is for the same reason we see in those on this path or rejection — first the rejection is of something that the person does not agree with in Christ’s church, then it expands further and further until they reject everything related to Christianity
for them it becomes a case of burning in the bosom. The problem lies in that people think they can just pick up, thumb a verse and build a philosophy. God did not give us a Book, He gave us His living Word and He gave us a community to learn and pray together. Together as a community riles many who take individualism to extremes
Most folks like to share their beliefs. Secretive folks who refuse to do so, well...
your post 42 is deleted, as expected...
Don’t agree....
...the scriptures do indeed speak of the Godhead contrary to what this article speaks....Christ was fully God and fully man.
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form Col 2:9
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word ...Heb. 1:3
Jesus is not merely a man who had God within Him.... He is God in the flesh.
Further Jesus’ two natures are not “mixed together”... They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus......called the Hypostatic Union.
Mariology
Coat of Arms of Pope John Paul II. The letter M in the Marian Cross is for Mary, Jesus’ mother. Pope John Paul II’s strong Marian devotion was highly influenced by the Mariology of Saint Louis de Montfort. According to his Apostolic Letter Rosarium Virginis Mariae, the pontif’s personal motto “Totus Tuus” was inspired by St. Louis’ doctrine on total consecration to the Virgin Mary, which he quoted:
“Our entire perfection consists in being conformed, united and consecrated to Jesus Christ. Hence the most perfect of all devotions is undoubtedly that which conforms, unites and consecrates us most perfectly to Jesus Christ.
Now, since Mary is of all creatures the one most conformed to Jesus Christ, it follows that among all devotions that which most consecrates and conforms a soul to our Lord is devotion to Mary, his Holy Mother, and that the more a soul is consecrated to her the more will it be consecrated to Jesus Christ.”[3]
In an address to the Montfortian Fathers, the pontiff also said that his reading Saint Louis de Montfort’s work The True Devotion to Mary was a “decisive turning point” in his life.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachings_of_Pope_John_Paul_II THE SECRET OF MARY
St. Louis de Montfort
INDEX:
INTRODUCTION
1. NECESSITY OF HAVING A TRUE DEVOTION TO MARY
2. WHAT PERFECT DEVOTION TO MARY CONSISTS IN
3. SUPPLEMENT
A. Prayer to Jesus
B. Prayer to Mary
4. THE CARE AND GROWTH OF THE TREE OF LIFE
A. The holy slavery of love
B. How to cultivate it
C. Its lasting fruit: Jesus Christ
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/SECRET.HTM#3.%20Supplement
Analog — as I pointed out above, there are quite a few bodies that agree with Nestorius. Nestorianism, Arianism died out in the first centuries. Then they revived post the 1600s and you have Arians (Jehovah’s Witnesses philosophy to a large extent, and also Unitarianism) and Nestorianism flourishing here in America.
Exactly -- that is orthodoxy.
“it does seem to me that if one throws out the community of believers and praying, reading, learning, worshipping as a community, individuals can make such conclusions as in the Adventist, Jehovah’s Witnesse, Mormon, even Messianic Jewish belief (the latter currently puzzles me as Jewish folks shake their heads at these guys beliefs and to me it looks like they are trying to merge mercury and water”
In the end, it is the Holy Spirit who will teach us - and yes, the Holy Spirit will often use the church. That is why teaching is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
But in truth, much of scripture is painfully clear. Is there one God, or 1000? Scripture is extremely clear, if one is willing to use 100 explicit verses to explain 2 hard ones, rather than using the 2 that seem strange to explain the 100. That is a point I often make with Calvinists. There are roughly 500 verses dealing with faith & belief in the NT, and about 20 involving predestination in some sense. Do you interpret the 20 in the light of the 500, or the 500 in the light of the 20?
Or to put it another way...does one interpret Peter’s statement in Acts 2:38 in the light of the 500, or use that one to teach baptismal regeneration in spite of the 500?
But there is nothing ever to prevent someone from twisting scripture. Jesus told us there would be a mix of wheat and tares in the Church, and he would separate them in the end. Meanwhile, it is by their fruit you will know them.
Further, I think scripture is clear that God is more concerned with fruit in our lives - a changed life - than in trying to explain the Trinity, or the exact way in which Jesus is both eternal God and incarnate Man. As Paul put it in writing the Colossians:
“4-7 I write this to prevent you from being led astray by someone or other’s attractive arguments. For though I am a long way away from you in body, in spirit I am by your side, watching like a proud father the solid steadfastness of your faith in Christ. Just as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so go on living in him—in simple faith. Grow out of him as a plant grows out of the soil it is planted in, becoming more and more sure of the faith as you were taught it, and your lives will overflow with joy and thankfulness.
8 Be careful that nobody spoils your faith through intellectualism or high-sounding nonsense. Such stuff is at best founded on men’s ideas of the nature of the world and disregards Christ!
9-10 Yet it is in him that God gives a full and complete expression of himself (within the physical limits that he set himself in Christ). Moreover, your own completeness is only realised in him, who is the authority over all authorities, and the supreme power over all powers.”
To accept the bible position we must believe that the soul is not connected to the flesh...
Even in your own religion, as the departed souls of Catholics head out to purgatory, their bodies stay in the grave... But no, Jesus' soul was separated from his flesh just as is the soul of born again Christians...
At the 'new birth' we undergo an operation...A spiritual operation...An operation made without hands...
Just as the Jews went thru a physical circumcision, we Christians go thru a spiritual circumcision...
To me, that would be a good place to start to reconsider any false beliefs by singling out groups as heretics...If they are not heretics in the scriptures, then I couldn't call them heretics...
Once you throw out the Church and Tradition, it becomes an anything goes free-for-all.
Not at all...I can read the scriptures while a person in Norway can read the same scriptures and as long as we are both born again Christians, and we don't add or subtract from those scriptures, we will agree with each other on what the scriptures say...
Another issue is that you must believe and reconcile the whole counsel of God, not pick and choose what scriptures you want to ignore to make a theology work...And that is the biggest problem that is responsible for the different denominations...
If the judgment of scripture alone matters and that of the Church or the Church Fathers is irrelevant, than what authority do you have to condemn the Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other group for that matter for how they read the Bible?
The authority is the scripture...The Jehovah Witnesses created their own scriptures along with the Mormons just as the Catholic church invented its tradition...
The bible doesn't say a lot of different things to different people...
While it is certainly true that some in the churches will be babes drinking milk, there will also be the meat eaters...We don't all learn at the same level and some don't get beyond the milk...
But let's not forget one thing...It is ordained of God that there will be heresies in the churches...
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
We prove the scriptures by the heresies that abound around us...
Without any evidence there is no tradition which can be held as approved by the Apostles...
You can't just say 'it's so' because someone claimed at some time to have seen an Apostle...Or even if the person made the claim that they were taught by an Apostle...The Apostles taught a lot of folks who twisted what was said, or taught other gospels...
The only actual record we have is the God breathed, preserved scriptures...
John who???
What did Lester Roloff think about it??? Or Billy Sunday???
But let's not forget, Calvin was initially a Catholic...
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