Posted on 01/02/2012 3:13:39 PM PST by RnMomof7
LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy — For the second time in a week, Pope Benedict XVI has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, reasserting the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church and saying other Christian communities were either defective or not true churches.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
Are you ok,dear Sister?
Please feel free to freepmail me.
Perhaps you are unaware of he who must not be mentioned on the RF.
Posting images from said not allowed to be mentioned website could easily result in banning. Anyone doing it deserves what they get.
Check out the Religion Moderator’s home page for more information about that.
At least a stern warning if not an outright zot.
Stern warnings are for just MENTIONING it.
This not a RF regular comes on and posts something like that? You suppose that there’s any other reason than to inflame and incite?
Well, perhaps to pose as a non-Catholic to make us look bad, but that would qualify as inflaming and inciting.
I can smell the ozone already.
Another view:
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/03/apostolic-succession-part-2-succession.html
Succession lists of kings, periodically appointed magistrates, and heads of philosophical schools were kept in the Hellenistic world. The Jews had lists of prophets and rabbis, but most importantly of high priests. Although early Christians had an interest in the succession of their own prophets and teachers (particularly in the catechetical school in Alexandria), special attention attached to the succession of bishops, who by the end of the second century incorporated much of the authority and function of prophets and teachers into their office.
1 Clement 42-44 taught the apostolic institution of the offices of bishop and deacon in the church. After the appointment of the first bishops and deacons, the apostles provided for the continuation of these offices in the church. This was not the same as the later doctrine of apostolic succession, and it is to be noted that Clement included deacons as well as bishops in his statement. Ignatius, the first witness to only one bishop in a church, did not base his understanding of the ministry on succession. The one bishop was a representative of God the Father, and the presbyters had their model in the college of apostles (Trall. 3).
The first claim to a succession from the apostles in support of particular doctrines was made in the second century by the Gnostics. They claimed that the apostles had imparted certain secret teachings to some of their disciples and that these teachings had been passed down, thus having apostolic authority, even if different from what was proclaimed in the churches (Irenaeus, Haer. 3.2.1; cf. Ptolemy in Epiphanius, Haer. 33.7.9). Hegesippus, an opponent of Gnosticism, compiled a list of the bishops in Rome (Eusebius, H.E. 4.22.5f.).
Irenaeus of Lyons drew on the idea of the succession of bishops to formulate an orthodox response to the Gnostic claim of a secret tradition going back to the apostles. Irenaeus argued that if the apostles had had any secrets to teach, they would have delivered them to those men to whom they committed the leadership of the churches. A person could go to the churches founded by apostles, Irenaeus contended, and determine what was taught in those churches by the succession of teachers since the days of the apostles. The constancy of this teaching was guaranteed by its public nature; any change could have been detected, since the teaching was open. The accuracy of the teaching in each church was confirmed by its agreement with what was taught in other churches. One and the same faith had been taught in all the churches since the time of the apostles.
Irenaeus's succession was collective rather than individual. He spoke of the succession of the presbyters (Haer. 3.2.2), or of the presbyters and bishops (4.26.2), as well as of the bishops (3.3.1). To be in the succession was not itself sufficient to guarantee correct doctrine. The succession functioned negatively to mark off the heretics who withdrew from the church. A holy life and sound teaching were also required of true leaders (4.26.5). The succession pertained to faith and life rather than to the transmission of special gifts. The "gift of truth" (charisma veritatis) received with the office of teaching (4.26.2) was not a gift guaranteeing that what was taught would be true, but was the truth itself as a gift. Each holder of the teaching chair in the church received the apostolic doctrine as a deposit to be faithfully transmitted to the church. Apostolic succession as formulated by Irenaeus was from one holder of the teaching chair in a church to the next and not from ordainer to ordained, as it became....
[In Tertullian] Churches were apostolic that agreed in the same faith, even if not founded by apostles.
Apostolic succession arose in a polemical situation as an effective argument for the truth of Catholic tradition against Gnostic teachings. As so often happens to successful arguments, it came to be regarded as an article of faith, not just a defense of the truth but a part of truth itself.
Hippolytus is apparently the first for whom the bishops were not simply in the succession from the apostles but were themselves successors of the apostles (Haer., praef.). When Eusebius of Caesarea used the lists of bishops as the framework for his Church History, he did not count the apostles in the episcopal lists. Cyprian, however, made an identification of the episcopate and the apostolate (Ep. 64.3; 66.4; cf. Sent. epp. 79 and Socrates, H.E. 6.8)....
The sacramental understanding of ordination that grew up in the fourth and fifth centuries shifted the emphasis to a succession from ordainer to ordained, but the earlier historical type of succession was preserved in the lists of local bishops....
Election by the people was one of the methods of appointment known to Origen (Hom. 13 in Num. 4)....
The will of the populace could prevail over clerical opposition (Sulpicius Severus, V. Mart. 9). (Encyclopedia Of Early Christianity [New York: Garland Publishing, Inc., 1999], pp. 94-95, 366-367)
I pm'd the original poster as soon as it appeared so he could get the mod to delete it asap.I'm surprised it's still there.
No argument, totally agree. And each of us is ultimately responsible for our own actions to him, not men.
No, if you look at the post number of the comment that SW posted to, it was to my post.
He just changed the name in the *To* field to make a snarky comment supposedly to himself. That takes deliberate action.
But nobody can change the replied to number.
Galatians 1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
I do not fear men or leaders, for they have killed the men of like minded faith In Christ before me, and I shall glory in that day that they kill me for Christ's sake [Philippians 1:21: For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.]; I die daily [1 Cor. 15:31]. As for me, I fear ONLY God and His Christ and His appointed Apostle, for God has announced through Paul that: Romans 2:16: In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Sadly, every evil word on this board is accumulating judgement out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works [Rev 20:12]
Have the guts to address the person you’re referring to.
Good point. Since I’m not on these threads I didn’t know they weren’t a regular. I remember when one of our fave LDS posters (the one who loves exclamation points IIRC) posted a link and got a stern warning and the post was removed.
But if this is from a non-regular poster then yeah, I go for zot.
clear as mud? LOL
Except that is exactly what the Word of God says:
Romans 4:5-8
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Romans 4:9-12
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Romans 4:21-23
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
The word imputed, in the Greek is "logizomai", and means:
1) to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
a) to take into account, to make an account of
1) metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute
2) a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight
b) to number among, reckon with
c) to reckon or account
2) to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate
3) by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer
a) to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on
b) to suppose, deem, judge
c) to determine, purpose, decide
This word deals with reality. If I reckon (logizomai) that my bank book has $25 in it, it has $25 in it. Otherwise I am deceiving myself. This word refers more to fact than supposition or opinion.
So, I would disagree that imputed righteousness would have been a foreign concept to the earliest Christians, seeing as Paul taught it and the concept was also spoken of in the Old Testament as well.
Hi Boatbums- Do you notice how there is no real actual text from an Early Church Father in this article. Do you really think this is the way to know the truth from this blog? Do you also notice the Double speak in this article?
Happy New Year to all here!
Too often specific doctrines are taken out of context and ridiculed without appreciation for the fullness of our Faith. Plese accept my explanations below in Christian charity.
We believe that Mary’s body was assumed to heaven at the time of her death. As the Mother of God, she is also the Queen Mother of the new King of David. So yes, we honor her above other women— as Scripture says, “all generations will call me blessed.” Do you?
Asking the Mother of God to pray for us is just what children do when they ask their earthly moms to intercede on their behalf, just as many once asked The Queen Mother to intercede for them in ancient Israel.
If you believe that asking the blessed Mother to pray for us is so extra scriptural, then I assume you don’t ask earthly friends, relatives, or other prayer warriors to pray for you.
Though it is commonly believed that we Catholics worship Mary, it is because many denominations no longer worship God in the Mass which is the NT worship God laid out for the ancient Jews—including incense, liturgical music, recitation of the psalms and OT readings now with NT and Gospel readings. We now add the Eucharistic Meal in the fullness of Jesus’ commands in John 6, which was foreshadowed in many OT events but most particularly in the 12 loaves of showbread and flagon of wine placed outside the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle in the desert and later in. The Temple.
A careful reading of the NT shows the Apostles going from place to place, singing Psalms, reading OT scriptures foreshadowing Jesus the Christ, sharing their own NT experiences of Jesus, and His Gospel teachings, then “Breaking Bread” as Jesus taught them to do. This was the nascent Mass. Some of the prayers in today’s Mass were old when documented in 250 AD by Hippolytus.
The Apostles laid hands and anointed priests and bishops, and the Church continues this unbroken tradition of anointing men who celebrate the Mass in persona Christi.
The Mass is the NT fulfillment of the Jews’ worship in the Temple, but no longer open to only the Jewish people in the Temple. We accept Christian Baptisms that are formulated according to Scripture in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (Ghost).
All that said, we Christians, as well as fellow conservatives are our own worst enemies fighting over the little we disagree on rather than fighting for the 85-90% we agree on. Peace and a very Happy New Year! OMG! Obama Must Go!
“Pope” comes from “Papa,” not “Pater.” Of course, Catholics do call priests, “Pater.”
The meaning of these verses is open to debate. The Lutheran and subsequent Protestant contention that Christ’s righteousness covers us like snow on a dunghill derives as much from philosophy as it does to scripture.
The Haydock commentary on Romans says:
Ver. 7. Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. That is, blessed are those who, by doing penance, have obtained pardon and remission of their sins, and also are covered; that is, newly clothed with the habit of grace, and vested with the stole of charity. (Challoner) -— When it is said that the sins of man are covered, we must not imagine that they still remain, but on account of the goodness of God will not be punished, as the Lutherans contend; for the justice of God could not suffer this: but by it we must understand that they are entirely blotted out, and neither exist, nor are considered any longer by God. Still, we must not conclude that man is blessed, as soon as sin is remitted; since the same psalmist, in another place, ascribes happiness to man when he walks in the law of the Lord, and when he keeps judgment and does justice. (Psalms i; cv; and cviii.) And our Saviour says, If you know these things, blessed shall you be if you do them. (St. John xiii.) (Estius) -— Moreover, if sins were never blotted out, but only covered, why did the royal prophet pray to the Almighty, saying: blot out all mine iniquities; and in different parts of the 50th psalm and psalm cviii, speaking of the egregious sinner, he says: let the sin of his mother not be blotted out; which would mean nothing at all, if sins were never blotted out? (Haydock)
Ver. 8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord hath not imputed sin. That is, blessed is the man who hath retained his baptismal innocence, that no grievous sin can be imputed to him. And likewise, blessed is the man who, after falling into sin hath done penance, and leads a virtuous life by frequenting the sacraments necessary for obtaining the grace to prevent a relapse, that sin is no more imputed to him. (Challoner)
It’s remarkable that you stopped short of citing James 2:24.
As I have been saying all along, there is more to understanding scripture than a surface reading of the text.
St. Paul isn’t sanctioning a dead static faith with God that is once and done.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm
Where are the posts from those folks who don't want to see anyone try and spread divisions? Where are the comments about how this thread must have been started by someone who used to use a different name or who posts under multiple names? Where are the pleas to not divide Christians? I'm sure they're here somewhere so I must have missed them.
Regards
Double speak? No. Like what? Also, this article was only one part of a larger exposition on the subject. This is the link to the rest of the article: http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/03/apostolic-succession.html
Indeed.
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