there was only one gunAgain, from the Official LDS History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.34, p.617:
In the meantime Joseph, Hyrum, and Elder Taylor had their coats off. Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter, Hyrum for his single barrel, Taylor for Markham's large hickory cane, and Dr. Richards for Taylor's cane.
Joseph with a six-shooter and Hyrum with a single barrel. That's two guns. From the LDS History of the Church.
I'm sorry you find things complicated. History and the facts often are. There was an entire war going on within the United States. There was an assassination attempt on a governor. A man had called out his personal militia and had declared martial law against the law of the United States and the law of the state in which was living, He had declared his own theocracy. You're aware, I assume, that Smith had not only had himself declared General of the Nauvoo Legion, but in both 1843 and 1844 had himself ordained as "Prophet, Priest, and King over the Council [of Fifty] and the world"?
Things are pretty complicated when a guy is having himself declared king of the world, is riding around in a general's uniform on a white horse, and is declaring martial law after starting his own illegal anti-bank (and fleeing the state when it failed) and ordering a printing press destroyed for printing a newspaper saying that he was committing polygamy, which publicly denied repeatedly, although he had at least 44 wives when he was denying it, wouldn't you say?
So again, based on the LDS History of the church, I disagree. Two guns were smuggled into the Carthage Jail. And they were smuggled in by an LDS member.
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there was only one gun . . .Restornu:
Just another official LDS Church Educational Sysem source, although I'd suggest you read the fourth paragraph.
Did you notice neither of those was an 'anti-" source (which I've learned means "anything that's not an LDS source that hasn't been repudiated even though, technically, it exists." Those sources are fairLDS.org and the Church of Latter-Day Saints Church Educational System.
I have nothing against you personally and wish you good will. On the issue of whether one or two pistols were smuggled into the Carthage Jail, however, we’ve run into a quintessential non-LDS/LDS exchange:
- Non-LDS poster makes a factual statement based entirely on LDS sources and research;
- LDS poster says non-LDS poster is wrong and throws in an unnecessary personal slur, but includes no support for the statement that non-LDS poster is wrong;
- Non-LDS poster offers additional factual support and research for claim taken from LDS sources (including hyperlinks to www.lds.org and www.fairlds.org as necessary) and/or factual, researched sources;
- LDS poster still says non-LDS poster is wrong and refuses to consider that what he or she has been taught by untrained clergy or other teachers may not be right, or that something unpleasant may be in official LDS source.
I am somewhat offended that you implied I violated the Boy Scout Oath and specifically said I “poisoned the water” by saying a LDS member smuggled two pistols into the Carthage Jail.
I can’t say I am surprised that you continue to state that there was only one pistol despite the fact that I have quoted to the contrary from the official LDS History of the Church, Vol. 6, Chapter 34, page 617, and linked you to contrary information on the fairLDS.org website (a website I believe you site and I know that Saundra Duffy has recommended for those seeking the truth on LDS issues). However – and I mean this with respect – I realize you may have been taught to rely upon your testimony, to listen to what unpaid and untrained leaders have taught you, and not to question or to research facts that may cause you to question your faith.
This would explain why, as you admitted, you had never heard of Cyrus Wheelock, the LDS Elder who smuggled a six-shooter into the Carthage Jail for Joseph Smith. Jr. Most of the time I find that, as a historian and reader of LDS of official LDS history and other peer-reviewed history, I’m much more familiar with LDS history and teachings than LDS members. It’s just a fact.
To support your claim that there was only one gun, you quoted LDS Elder John Taylor. Note he didn’t say there was only one gun. He simply mentions the gun that Joseph Smith had. He never says anything about Hyrum Smith’s gun or whether Hyrum had one. I’ve said that Joseph and Hyrum had one pistol each – my quote from The History of the Church said that Joseph had a six-shooter and Hyrum had a single-shot. That makes two guns. I’ve never claimed Joseph Smith had a pistol in each hand, nor does The History of the Church claim that.
Also note that when you quoted LDS Elder John Taylor, you cited Jeff Lindsay’s lightplanet.com. You may not have noticed, but Jeff Lindsay’s John Taylor’s testimony comes from . . . The History of the Church 7:99-108.
In other words, the same source I cited as saying that both Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith had a pistol. Are you telling me that one page of the History of the Church is wrong but another is right? Doesn’t it make more sense that one page says (a) Joseph and Hyrum each had a gun (two guns), and (b) John Taylor said Joseph Smith fired his gun (there are still two guns, but there’s only need to mention Joseph’s, because that’s the only gun Taylor is talking about at the time?)?
And while we are mentioning John Taylor and the History of the Church, and his statements about his time with Joseph Smith in the Carthage Jail, let’s not forget that he talks about Joseph Smith giving one of the jail boys money money and sending him out for wine and tobacco (you’ll notice again that the official LDS History of the Church has two slightly different stories whether you read History of the Church Vol. 6, page 616, or Vol. 7, page 101 – but you’ll note that John Taylor specifically eenies that they took the wine for a sacrament, he says they drank it to “revive their spirits.”):
But back on the subject of the two guns that you say didn’t exist, pages 281 and 282 of the official Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Church Educational System Church History Instructional Manual teach young LDC members:
”At the jail, the four brethren sweltered in the sultry afternoon heat. Joseph gave Hyrum a single-shot pistol and prepared to defend himself with the six-shooter smuggled in that morning by Cyrus Wheelock.”
Source (for those of you like me who aren’t LDS, that history is not apparently authorized for view by gentiles; it’s hidden behind the LDS Seminaries and Institutes password-protected site that’s solely for authorized LDS teachers of seminar to LDS students, protected behind multiple directories that gentiles are not authorized to view; I didn’t hack a thing – it’s in public internet space and I . . . ummm . . . just ‘managed’ to incorporate it into my research, which is difference between doing thorough research and just listening to what somebody told you).
Do you believe that part of Taylor’s testimony?
Restornu, the LDS CES even includes a photo for LDS youth in seminary, so they know what the TWO pistols smuggled into the Carthage Jail for Joseph and Hyrum Smith looked like:
Now, the CES didn’t just make this stuff up (although I can pretty well substantiate that a lot of LDS history is made up – such as the 60,000+ words in Joseph Smith’s personal history changed after his death); they took it from the History of the Church. I’ve already given you the cite to this from the History of the Church.
Now at this point, I admit that I was wrong. LDS Elder Cyrus Wheelock only smuggled one of the guns. You remember how you weren’t familiar with Cyrus Wheelock? Are you familiar with Joseph Smith’s personal secretary, LDS Elder John S. Fulmer? I knew his name and I knew he visited Smith in the Carthage Jail. So lets go to History of the Church, Vol. 6, Chapters, 33-34, pages 602-622. I’ll pick up after Smith’s secretary, John S. Fulmer has just made his last visit to Smith in the Carthage jail:
”9:40 a.m. … [W]heelock prepared to visit the prison. The morning being a little rainy, favored his wearing an overcoat, in the side pocket of which he was enabled to carry a six shooter, and he passed the guard unmolested. During his visit in the prison he slipped the revolver into Joseph's pocket. Joseph examined it, and asked Wheelock if he had not better retain it for his own protection.
This was a providential circumstance, as most other persons had been very rigidly searched. Joseph then handed the single barrel pistol which had been given him by John S. Fullmer, to his brother Hyrum, and said, "You may have use for this." Brother Hyrum observed, "I hate to use such things or to see them used." "So do I," said Joseph, "but we may have to, to defend ourselves;" upon this Hyrum took the pistol.
And Chapter 35 makes it clear both Hyrum and Joseph had guns, and both pulled the trigger of their respective guns:
”5:00 p.m. … Hyrum was retreating back in front of the door and snapped his pistol, when a ball struck him in the left side of his nose, and he fell on his back on the floor saying, "I am a dead man!" As he fell on the floor another ball from the outside entered his left side, and passed through his body with such force that it completely broke to pieces the watch he wore in his vest pocket, and at the same instant another ball from the door grazed his breast, and entered his head by the throat; subsequently a fourth ball entered his left leg.
A shower of balls was pouring through all parts of the room, many of which lodged in the ceiling just above the head of Hyrum.
Joseph reached round the door casing, and discharged his six shooter into the passage, some barrels missing fire.
Why do you think you were taught by LDS teachers or friends that it was a non-LDS guard, and not two LDS Elders who smuggled pistols into these prisoners? Is it possible that saying that LDS Elders smuggled the guns shows the LDS Church in a bad light? Would this violated Boyd K. Packer’s concept of “faith-promoting history”?
Were you ever taught about how eager Joseph was to get that gun? Because the part of the History of the Church you quoted makes it clear he was eager to get it.Why do you think you weren’t taught that both Joseph and Hyrum were packing smuggled guns and that they both fired them?
restornu? Do you now believe me, a non-LDS amateur historian, that TWO LDS Elders, Cyrus Wheelock and John S. Fulmer independently smuggled a gun into the Carthage Jail to Joseph Smith?
Do you agree with me, the LDS History of the Church, two different teaching materials issued by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Church Educational System, fairLDS.org’s photos, the photos of the LDS CES, that there were TWO guns smuggled into the Carthage Jail?
Or do you want to believe what some untrained LDS member or teacher with a vested interest in faith-promoting history – who wasn’t interested in the truth, but merely in painting the rosiest picture possible for the LDS faith, once said?
Two LDS smugglers, restronu.
Two guns, restornu.
Two. I don't want to be a pain, but I'm getting tired of this game where people who posts facts are accused of telling lies. They're facts. They're LDS facts. They may not be pretty, but there's a lot about LDS history 'that ain't pretty.' The LDS Church would be must more respected if it admitted the elephants in the room rather than trying to claim they weren't there. ![]()