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To: Colofornian

Christianity directly proceeds from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!

At least two of these (probably all) were polygamists!

Either polygamy is at times acceptable to our Christian God ... or our God is wrong, and you need to find a new religion.

You can either play stupid or deal with it!


17 posted on 12/17/2011 12:52:39 PM PST by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country)
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To: teppe
Either polygamy is at times acceptable to our Christian God

Reality check #1: Jews discarded polygamy a couple of millenia ago.

Reality check #2: What God allows, and what he ordains and approves of, are two different things. Notice that Abraham was forced to expel Hagar and Ishmael, and God doesn't even even recognize Ishmael as Abraham's son: "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love ..." Gn 22:2 That means that God didn't recognize Abraham and Hagar's relationship as a marriage, because God doesn't recognize Ishmael as Abraham's legitimate offspring.

Reality check #3: God created Adam and Eve, not Adam, Eve, Jessica, Bethany, and Allison.

Reality check #4: Polygamy was unknown among Jews, among Greeks, and among Romans in NT times, and has never been endorsed or permitted by the Christian church. It's not a matter of some mythical "apostasy"; it was never permitted in the first place. Even serial polygamy (a/k/a divorce and remarriage) was not permitted.

19 posted on 12/17/2011 1:09:19 PM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
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To: teppe
Christianity directly proceeds from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! At least two of these (probably all) were polygamists!

The Bible makes NO mention of Isaac being a "polygamist." (Joseph Smith made it up when he made up D&C 132 to convince his wife, Emma, that his extra bed-partners was God-ordained)

Jacob? He became a polygamist via deception. Now if you think deception is the route to institute another form of marriage upon, no wonder you've embraced deception across the board.

Abraham? (see next post)

23 posted on 12/17/2011 1:44:59 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: teppe; Campion
Christianity directly proceeds from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! At least two of these (probably all) were polygamists!

So. Was Abram a polygamist? No.

Q. Why not?
A. Concubines were not considered "wives." And the only one who ever references Hagar as a "wife" is Sarai/Sarah. (But we never know if Abram slept with Hagar even more than once).

Q. Who continues to deem Hagar a servant/slave after sleeping with Abram?
A. …Abram,
…Sarai,
…the Angel of the Lord (who some say is the pre-incarnated Son of God),
…Moses (Gen. 25),
…even the apostle Paul (Gal. 4:21-31),
…and Hagar herself.

Sarai labels Hagar as a gift as a "wife" to Abram, but I question if a woman has the authority to "consent" on behalf of a slave.
Hagar was considered a slave both "before" and "after" sleeping with Abram. Why does the "before" matter? Just as a minor cannot "consent" to sex, a slave is in no better situation to "consent" to--or deny--her master's commands for sex. And in this case, the command didn't come from her husband, Abram; it came from her mistress (female word for "master"), Sarai (Sarai is twice referenced as "mistress"--Gen. 16:4,8).

Why does the "after" matter?

Because it shows she didn't become a "transformed" person--from slave to wifely status! Gen. 16:6,8,9; 21:11; 25:12; and Gal. 4:21-31 all are still referencing her as either a "slave" (twice in 21:11), "servant," or one who was told by the Angel to submit to her mistress (female word for "master"). By Gen. 25, Abraham is married to Keturah with no mention of Hagar (25:1) and is then buried with Sarah (25:10).

So, to summarize: If we were to call all the key witnesses to the stand, and hear what they have to say:

Q Hagar, after Sarai gave you to Abram and Ishmael was conceived, did you still acknowledge Sarai as your "mistress" in your conversation with the Angel of the Lord? [female master]
A Yes. (Gen. 16:8)

Q Sarai, when you were in your early nineties when Isaac was a toddler, how did you characterize Hagar?
A I told Abraham, Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son, Isaac. (Gen. 21:10)

Q Abraham, after Sarah gave you Hagar and you slept with her, how did you characterize Hagar?
A I told Sarah, as mistress (master) of her servant, Your servant is in your hands. Do with her whatever you think best. (Gen. 16:6)

Q When Sarah began to mistreat her servant, Hagar, did you intervene like what we might expect a husband to do?
A No. Hagar was Sarah's servant.

Q Angel of the Lord, when you called to Hagar after she conceived Ishmael, how did you reference her?
A Servant of Sarai (Gen. 16:8)

Q And when you conversed with Hagar, did you, Angel of the Lord, acknowledge that she was released from her servant role to Sarai?
A No. In fact, I told her Go back to your mistress and submit to her. (Gen. 16:9)

Q Moses, since you wrote Genesis, how did you identify Hagar in her last reference of that book? Did you link her to Abraham?
A No. I identified her as "Sarah's maidservant" (Gen. 25:12).

Q So in that same passage, you link Ishmael to Abraham, but you link Hagar only to Sarah?
A Yes.

Q Apostle, Paul How did the Holy Spirit lead you to interpret the Old Covenant as expressed through Abraham?
A For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother...Now you brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture say? 'Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son.' Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. (Gal. 4:21-31)

24 posted on 12/17/2011 1:46:28 PM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: teppe
There is no “our Chrisitan God”. To be one of his you must be Christian. As a practicing Mormon, you are not under that banner. It is up to you to change that.
31 posted on 12/17/2011 3:53:02 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: teppe
Either polygamy is at times acceptable to our Christian God ... or our God is wrong, and you need to find a new religion.

Or your premise is wrong and you need to try it on those who are logically challenged:


42 posted on 12/17/2011 6:17:17 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: teppe
What God allows, and what he ordains and approves of, are two different things.

True dat!

GOD has 'allowed' ABORTION to MURDER 1 of 4 children before birth in this country.

MORMONism's GOD will allow the same if you ask him right.

44 posted on 12/17/2011 6:20:14 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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