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Planet Kolob to Mormons: It’s not our weird beliefs, it’s our credibility
Mormon Matters.org ^ | Jan. 10, 2008 | John Hamer

Posted on 12/13/2011 8:11:29 AM PST by Colofornian

We know there’s a problem. Here’s how the bulk of us as Mormons see the problem:

SYMPTOMS: Americans have an anti-Mormon bias which manifests itself on the right with Evangelicals who call Mormonism “non-Christian” (and who cost Mitt Romney the Iowa Republican Caucus) and on the left with secularists and atheists decrying Mormonism’s foundational stories as an obvious “fraud.”

DIAGNOSIS: Mormons are “persecuted” by non-Mormons for their “weird” beliefs.

RECOMMENDED TREATMENT: De-emphasize (or eliminate) weird beliefs. Explain Mormonism using highly-nuanced language, which we (as Mormons) believe will satisfy non-Mormon ears (“milk before meat”).

We keep going back to the doctor because the symptoms persist. We keep refilling the prescription — and we now seem addicted to the medicine.

Unfortunately, that the diagnosis is wrong. Weird beliefs are not causing the symptoms. In the past generation, America generally has become increasingly tolerant of weird beliefs. America is more broadly pluralistic because of the influx of traditional religions that were previously unrepresented in the US (and therefore are filled with unfamiliar, weird beliefs), e.g., Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims, and also because the rise of indigenous weird beliefs: wicca, neo-paganism, American Buddhism and the various New Age ideas. (Is America ready for a neo-pagan president? No, because the masses of neo-pagans are college kids. Is America ready for a Sikh president? No, because most Sikhs are 1st generation immigrants. Is America ready for a Mormon president? Yes. Mo Udall would have beaten Gerald Ford, if he had bested Jimmy Carter in the 1976 Democratic primaries.) My point is that our society is prepared to be more broadly pluralistic than ever before. The primary component of pluralism is tolerance for our neighbor’s weird beliefs.

If it’s not so-called weird beliefs, what’s the real cause? I believe the cause of the problem is medicine we keep taking and that the underlying and resulting problem we face is credibility. It’s the milk before meat approach itself that undermines Mormon credibility. The examples of how this true problem manifests itself are so numerous — even in the past year alone — it’s hard to pick from among them. Let’s consider just one of 21 Questions Answered About Mormon Faith that the Fox News prepared in conjunction wiht the LDS church’s PR folks:

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe its followers can become “gods and goddesses” after death?

A: We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being ‘joint heirs with Christ’ reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way. Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. The goal is not to equal them or to achieve parity with them but to imitate and someday acquire their perfect goodness, love and other divine attributes.

Whachama-come again? This is a hefty dose of the medicine of de-emphasizing weird beliefs when speaking to non-Mormons. Can you argue that this bizarre answer is “not false”? Of course! And whenever anyone argues that any one of these medicinal answers is false, apologetic Mormons across the blogosphere will leap into heroic action in the answer’s defense.

And that is the problem! The problem is not whether the medicinal answers can be argued to be “not-false.” The problem is that these answers are not open and forthright, and that they thus lack credbility.

The real problem Mormons face is not that we have weirdness. It’s that we lack credibility.


TOPICS: Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: credibility; inman; lds; mormon; weird
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To: Elsie

“”Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; “

One problem. They believe everything can be changed by a future revelation, even if that revelation came while the US government was threatening to take the Temples.


81 posted on 12/13/2011 5:31:50 PM PST by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: Vendome

Channeling giant from the Princess Bride...”I don’t think that word means what you think it means...”


82 posted on 12/13/2011 5:51:45 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)
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To: Vendome

‘Eyem not sure that word means what chu think it means, my friend.’


83 posted on 12/13/2011 5:54:04 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they cannot be deceived, it's impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: Elsie

I could never figure out why the Mormon God was such an overt racist. Maybe it is something left over from his character while still a man.


84 posted on 12/13/2011 6:09:20 PM PST by pennyfarmer (Even a RINO will chew its foot off when caught in a trap.)
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To: RansomOttawa

I hate to ask, but did you forget your /sarc tag?


85 posted on 12/13/2011 6:32:00 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)
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To: Normandy
"I have never regretted “checking out” Mormonism. I became convinced of the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints over a quarter century ago, and have found a life far more abundant than I had known before."

Like Essau, some will trade that which is eternally valuable for that which appears to have temporal value or comfort.

I'm just sorry you are one of them, Normandy. The abundant comfort is now. The eternal regret comes later.

86 posted on 12/13/2011 6:36:02 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (You know, 99.99999965% of the lawyers give all of them a bad name)
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To: Normandy

Well you WILL regret it someday, either in this life or the next.

There are no second chances and Mormonism is the HOV lane to a very real Hell for a very real eternity (not the Mormon definition btw).

And none of us want that for you, we don’t.


87 posted on 12/13/2011 6:37:55 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)
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To: AppyPappy
They believe everything can be changed by a future revelation, even if that revelation came while the US government was threatening to take the Temples.

One problem: they claim that the previous 'revelation' is SCRIPTURE; so if there is a later one that CHANGES what the first said; it sure better be 'scripture', too!

Where's the evidence of it?

88 posted on 12/13/2011 8:21:46 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: AppyPappy
They believe everything can be changed by a future revelation, even if that revelation came while the US government was threatening to take the Temples.

One problem: they claim that the previous 'revelation' is SCRIPTURE; so if there is a later one that CHANGES what the first said; it sure better be 'scripture', too!

Where's the evidence of it?

The FOLLOWING is their 'explanation':

POLYGAMY is STILL the Official Doctrine of  The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints - based in Salt Laker City.

NOTHING was changed in the MORMONic scriptures.

Here - read for yourself - just SEE if 'GOD' told them to change ANYTHING about their belief.


 

 
 
 
 
 
OFFICIAL DECLARATION—1

To Whom It May Concern:

Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy

I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.

One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.

There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

WILFORD WOODRUFF
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 




President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:

“I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.”

The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.

Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.







 

EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTO

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .

I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .

The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.

The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place
if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.

. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .

I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us.
(Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)
 
 
 

Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it.
 
(From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
 

 
 
 
 
What kind of  'Leadership' is THIS???
 
compared to...
 
 
 
 
Hebrews 11:35-40
 35.  Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.
 36.  Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison.
 37.  They were stoned ; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated--
 38.  the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 
 
 
or compared to...
 

Acts 4:19.  But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God.
 


 
So much for an 'Everlasting Covenant' that thundered out of Heaven!!!
 
Well; it DID last about 47 years!
 



 
Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriage...
I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws..."

~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President

89 posted on 12/13/2011 8:22:43 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: reaganaut

Hi Reaganaut,

Thanks for the good wishes.

I hope and pray that through the mercies of Christ I may be saved in His kingdom.

Best,

Normandy


90 posted on 12/14/2011 4:37:12 AM PST by Normandy
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To: Normandy
I hope and pray that through the mercies of Christ I may be saved in His kingdom.

The BIBLE still speaks:

Joshua 24:15(NKJV)

...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.

If you are BIC, then you are now serving 'the gods which your fathers served'.

If not, then you have made a conscience decision to cling to what the Mormon hierarchy has proclaimed.

No matter which side of the aisle you reside, you can change your mind.


MORMONism says that the FULLNESS of the Gospel can be found in the Book of Mormon.

If that is true; then stay where you are.




91 posted on 12/14/2011 6:02:13 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

Restoration of Jesus Christ’s Gospel (From WhyMORMONism)

http://whymormonism.org/21/translation_book_of_mormon


92 posted on 12/14/2011 6:11:33 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Normandy

I hope and pray that through the mercies of Christ I may be saved in His kingdom.

- - - - -
You don’t have to hope and pray. You can know by accepting the Christ of the Bible. Unfortuantely, that means leaving Mormonism and all of the non-biblical trappings (like their priesthood, modern prophets, BoM, PGP, godhood etc).

I do know that the LDS believe Mormonism is compatible with the Bible, but a real study of the Bible (preferably a non LDS KJV) will show any one of them it is not. Many LDS have left because they really read the Bible and I pray that someday you will as well.

It isn’t about a ‘one true church’ or a ‘restoration’ it is only about Christ and Christ is just a footnote in Mormonism even though they are programmed to say otherwise.

I will be praying for you.


93 posted on 12/14/2011 8:47:56 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)
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To: reaganaut
I hate to ask, but did you forget your /sarc tag?

Forget? No, but was it really necessary?

94 posted on 12/14/2011 7:55:55 PM PST by RansomOttawa (tm)
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To: RansomOttawa

You would be surprised at some of the comments we get on here, so yeah it isn’t a bad idea. LOL.


95 posted on 12/14/2011 8:21:21 PM PST by reaganaut (Romney IS Obama - just 'white and delightsome' - except on Fox News)
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To: altsehastiin
After all, mormons as a people seem to be incredibly happy, prosperous and well-adjusted.

Psychologists in Utah have no shortage of Mormon women as clients who are anti-depressants at a much higher rate than the national average.

96 posted on 12/14/2011 8:24:34 PM PST by SeaHawkFan
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