Posted on 12/06/2011 6:06:40 AM PST by Colofornian
They do copy and paste the same stuff day after day, and will keep doing so as long as Mormons obfuscate, deny and out right lie about the very facts before them...
OH DON'T EVEN GO THERE SANDY...
YOU support with your time, words and money the most blasphemous heretical "Church" in existence when it comes to Jesus Christ.
Jesus conceived by a physical sex act between a flesh and bones "god" and Mary?
Jesus not full sufficient for salvation?
Joe Smith part of the plan of redemption making him equal to Christ?
Jesus and Satan are Brothers?
Jesus is just one of a number of "gods".
Just stop and spare the phony indignation.
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy which depends on human tradition, and basic principles of this world, rather than the Christ."
Colossians 2:8
Sure we do!
--MormonDude(But sometimes we just have to answer the question that WASN'T asked!)
And I will keep on doing what I am doing
in order to cut the ground from under those They do copy and paste the same stuff day after day, and will keep doing so as long as Mormons obfuscate, deny and out right lie about the very facts before them...
who want an opportunity to be considered equal
with us in the things they boast about.
When one does NOT have an ENORMOUS publishing empire...
...what else is left?
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lds can deny all they want but here it is:
http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/24762/Joseph-Smiths-birthday-commemorated.html
PULL QUOTE: we celebrate not only the birth of the Savior but also the birthday of our Prophet Joseph Smith.
http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/56330/Church-History-Museum-celebrates-Joseph-Smiths-birthday.html
PULL QUOTE: The festivities began on Joseph’s birthday, Dec. 23, and will run until Jan. 3.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705379702/Remember-the-Prophet-Joseph-Smiths-birthday.html
PULL QUOTE: As the Doctrine and Covenants affirms, “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.”
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/600137230/Vermont-group-observing-Joseph-Smiths-birthday.html
OBSERVATION: not even a mention of Jesus Christ
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With all truth, I see the lds-jesus as a fake, as a charlatan. Your church has stolen the name of the Creator of the Entire Universe, and you have brought Him down to being a mere created man, and the brother of lucifer, besides. Your jesus is saccharine, a simple counterfeit.
Colossians 1:16-17 (KJV)
“For by him were all things created,
that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things,
and by him all things consist.”
Couple of things...
First, your Prophets are ‘head’ of the LDS church, not Christ. Second, your Prophets have taught several times that Jesus was a polygamist. Want quotes? I can give them to you.
Second, that IS what I was saying. I was taught, and know many LDS who believe that Jesus was married and a polygamist. It appears that you don’t know LDS teachings nearly as well as you think you do.
I was taught, in the 1980’s and 1990’s, at BYU, LDS Sunday School, and by other lifelong LDS that Jesus was a polygamist. The LDS church may have toned it down a bit, but the rank and file by far still adhere to it.
We have even had some LDS on here be honest enough to admit that they believe it.
Sorry forgot to delete HTML tags... trying this again
Yes, Mormons really believe that stuff. Also, a few Mormons are truly ignorant of LDS teachings and history but many lie or dissemble in order to make the LDS church appear “Christian”. I am pasting another post I had written about LDS ‘lying for the Lord’ that has a conversation similar to ones I had when I was LDS. Hope this helps.
The LDS don’t do systematic theology. For years the closest thing was Bruce R. McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine”. Now that has been thrown under the bus because some of his statements are embarrassing to the LDS church even though they have not repudiated anything said in there and it was approved by the Prophet and Apostles and published by the main LDS publishing company (an LDS version of nihil obstat or imprimitur). The LDS use manuals, published every few years, on a rotation for Sunday School, Priesthood/Relief Society and their High School and College religion classes. They are also discouraged from researching on their own or reading old ‘primary sources’.
Sadly, they are spoon fed theology in a manner that keeps them from looking too deep. My ‘crime’ as it were was going beyond the manuals given to me and actually trying to make sense and research LDS history and doctrine in order to prove the ‘antis’ were lying.
As to why I lied about LDS beliefs (or dissembled), there is a constantly used phrase/idea that comes down from the leadership of “every member a missionary”. It means that every member is to try to convert people to Mormonism. Couple that with the other oftused meme of “don’t do anything that makes ‘the Church’ look bad” and you have an interesting combination. The “why” gets down to these.
It is easier to lie or omit things or twist words than it is to explain what the LDS really believe and risk losing a potential convert or have someone go away thinking less than glowing things about the LDS church. Every member is expected to find ‘investigators’ (people who would be interested in converting who take the missionary discussions - similar to RCIA). There is also a lot of people who hear things about beliefs but don’t know enough to know what the LDS are saying, that they use different meanings for terms, even though the LDS usually know that Christians mean different things.
A typical exchange could go like this...
non - LDS - “I have a lot of Mormon friends, and they are nice people, but don’t Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers?”
LDS - No! We don’t believe that at all! Jesus is the only begotten Son of God! Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth. Why don’t you come over for dinner and we will have the missionaries talk to you? There is a set of 6 discussions that they give that shows what we believe.
non-LDS - “Well, ok, but I read somewhere that Mormons believe they will become Gods”
LDS - “That was probably written by someone who has a grudge against the Church. They probably are one of the ones who gets paid to badmouth the Church or someone who couldn’t live by the principles of the Church so they left or they were offended by someone in their ward.
Ok, lets parse this. Notice how many times “the Church” is used. For the LDS it is all about “the Church”. LDS ‘testimonies’ often start out with “I know the Church is true”. Then there is the automatic denial that Jesus and Satan are brothers. We saw it on this a thread the other day even. Now, all LDS know that their church teaches Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers.
So why would you get a resounding “NO”? Because it makes their theology look silly. By stating “No” the LDS are lying to you, but they are thinking “Well they aren’t flesh brothers, just spirit brothers like we all are, Jesus is our Elder brother”. The other day an LDS came on one of these threads and stated “Jesus and Lucifer aren’t brothers, as if by Mary!”. Notice the subtlety of it. “As if by Mary” implying they aren’t physical brothers (which no one claimed). But they left out That Lucifer was the second born and Jesus was the firstborn of the spirit children. Next we come to what would appear to be a rebuttal to the claim Jesus and Satan are brothers. “Jesus is the only begotten Son of God!” what they are not telling you is that they mean it in a literal sense. Jesus and Satan are SPIRIT brothers (like all of us) but Jesus is God’s physical son, God came down, had sex with Mary and conceived Jesus. So it isn’t a rebuttal at all and the LDS know that. They are intentionally twisting words to make you think they don’t believe Jesus and Satan are Spirit brothers.
Next Phrase - “Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth.” This is referring to the “First Vision” (of which there are several contradictory accounts) and the Great Apostasy. The LDS will tone down things said about other Christians. In the first vision account, Smith isn’t told that other churches ‘had problems’ he was told “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html
“All wrong”, “Corrupt” and Creeds an abomination are not the same as “some problems” and the LDS know that. But they will soften it in order to not scare people off or to put the LDS church in a ‘better light’.
Next - about becoming Gods. Notice the LDS response is to go down a rabbit hole, rather than addressing the comment. Instead they lead the person to believe that the source was unreliable, or written by someone who had something to gain (money) or a former Mormon with a grudge. The question itself isn’t even addressed (lying by omission). It also causes the person to think that they might be wrong and that the LDS don’t believe that, even though the LDS person knows they do.
Finally, the invitation to meet with the missionaries. There is an assumption by many that these are people who know more about Mormonism than the average member and that isn’t true either. Most men and quite a few women serve LDS missions (I nearly did). They don’t have special knowledge. They also don’t tell you is the goal of those 6 discussions is to get you baptized Mormon and there is pressure put on you to read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, make commitments and convert. Those 6 discussions aren’t just a summary of LDS beliefs, they are the requirements for conversion and that is their goal. But they don’t tell you that, they make it sound like this is just a friendly way of talking to knowledgeable people about what the LDS believe.
Also, there is the doctrine of ‘line upon line, precept upon precept’ or “milk before meat”, that coverts are only told doctrines when they are spiritually ready to hear them. The missionary discussions are the barest of milk. You learn one set of things in them, and then after you convert you start to learn the rest of LDS theology. Then after a year of faithful membership (sometimes more) you get to go to the LDS temple and learn the ‘meat’ doctrines and are sworn to secrecy (used to have to swear blood oaths).
Part of why I do this, is I believe in full disclose and the LDS do not tell the truth to outsiders about what they believe, usually under the idea of ‘milk before meat’. For Christians there is no reason not to tell the whole truth, even if it is someone who may not understand yet. Rather we help them understand rather than say they can’t know yet.
75 posted on Sunday, October 02, 2011 1:10:47 PM by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian “I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see”.) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies | Report Abuse] Pasted from
Sitting on the kitchen counter and calling yourself a toaster doesn’t make it so.
Just like having Christ in your group’s title doesn’t make you a Christian.
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I am friends with a Mormon gal who wanted me to convert and we had a short discussion about just that. I ask her if Mormons seek to become gods. She was very up front and truthful with me and said, ‘yes.’ I stated that God says that there is only one God and there can not be any others. This includes ‘gods’ with a lower case ‘g.’ I told this is a fundamental truth that I live by and can not violate it. She understood and hasn’t tried to convert me again plus we are still friends.
She is probably one of the few Mormons who can probably be straight with me on Mormon theology, but I do see your point about omitting things, subtly changing the wording, or outright denying anything that could make them look bad. That’s part of human nature.
I think the whole starting point about what is wrong with Mormon theology is the starting point of who can and can’t be God. Moses taught that God can only be defined as a non-corporeal being beyond male and female that can only be at best a spirit that is beyond this universe and all of its dimensions. Christians decided to deify a Jewish rabbi who possibly overcame death through the ascension process. That changed the definition of what and who God is. (When mankind goes back to a closeness to God like Adam and Eve they will undergo their own individual ascension processes. Just because you overcome death and live forever doesn’t qualify you as God.) This started the slippery slope that would eventually result in the advent of Mormonism. “If Jesus can be God (or a god) so can I!” is the thinking.
One day in the not-too-distant future mankind will speak one language again and have only one God to look to. In the mean time we have to deal with people where they are, value them for who they are, see through their corny ideas by studying God’s instructions for life, and doing what we can to help those who are lost get back on track.
One time I had a Christian come up to me a try to convert as I was out for a walk. He tried to steamroller me with verse after verse from the New Testament and the Old. I asked enough questions that he became angry and yelled at me to leave! LOL! I’ll never forget that. The truth is much simpler than most realize, but human nature wants to complicate it all.
When I see people like Saundra who say this, that and the other about their religion I know its way out there, but it is still important to be patient, listen to them and what they have to say, ask them questions in a kind, simple, pointed, hard-hitting but respectful manner so that it makes them think. Sure, it might get them angry, but if you set an example of kindness and humility it usually will help to keep the lines of communication open with them. Later when they are ready they can come to me and ask questions. I just do my best to answer as completely and truthfully as possible.
A big part of what got me out of Mormonism was that people (like us so called ‘antis’) confronted me and got me angry enough to try to prove them wrong. What it did was get me to think and research. This is also the same method that has worked with almost every ex-mo I know, even those on here.
Here's the Mormon Tabernacle singing a ‘splendiferic’ version of the Messiah. Enjoy, and try not to let the static noise here drown out the joy of the season for you.
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