Posted on 12/01/2011 1:55:07 PM PST by Colofornian
...They gather twice each year...
Evangelical Christians and Mormons.
SNIP
"Our meetings are extremely cordial," said Dr. Robert L. Millet, former dean of Religious Education at BYU...
SNIP
'Is Mormonism Christian?' is a very important question," writes Matt Slick of...Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. "The answer is equally important and simple. No. Mormonism is not Christian.
"If you are a Mormon," Slick adds, "please realize that CARM is not trying to attack you, your character or the sincerity of your belief." For a variety of reasons that Slick explains in his paper, "the Mormon is not Christian — in spite of all his claims that he is Christian."
SNIP
Millet indicates that...three major issues...separate Mormons from evangelical Christians..."
1. Latter-day Saints believe God has a physical body, and is in fact an exalted man. "Evangelical Christians find this belief to be strange at best and blasphemous at worst," Millet said. "They feel that it shortens the distance between creator and creature. They feel the chasm between God and man is an infinite, uncross-able chasm...They feel that Joseph Smith bridged a chasm that one should not even presume to bridge..."
SNIP
2. "...the doctrine of the Trinity places us outside the realm of historical Christianity [Slick of CARM... According to Millet..."We're outside the realm of historical Christianity..."
3. Latter-day Saints believe in additional scripture. "The problem here is that evangelical Christians have a strong feeling about the sufficiency of the Bible," Millet explained. "They view the Bible as the infallible, sufficient, final word of God. They believe that our claim to additional scripture is prima facie evidence of our rejection of the Bible, or our feeling that it is somehow deficient. They say we have a low view of the Bible, whereas they have a high view of the Bible..."
(Excerpt) Read more at deseretnews.com ...
Got to remember that Mark Twain hailed from the land that also gave to America Rush.
Also Mark Twain wrote a book about being in the Holy Land.
If he was alive today, he would have his own talkradio show!
It was an issue; since then, it's become quite a coveted brand issue.
Still, Joseph Smith tried to dump all worldwide Christians into a spiritual graveyard and declare them "dead." (A religious "scorched earth" approach).
After all, if Christianity wasn't declared "dead," Smith and his so-called "restoration" became superflous. (No need for him)
That's why Smith declared all of Christianity to be "apostate." "Corrupt professors." 100% of us.
Those who preach "tolerance" should start with the way Smith & his leaders spiritually treated Christians from the 1830s on.
We (LDS) are believers in Jesus Christ and followers of Christ. Doesn’t seem inaccurate to therefore call ourselves Christians.
The two questions I have is this, if the Mormons call themselves “Christian” why do traditional Christians do not accept the Mormon baptism and also why the extra book called the “Book of Mormon”, which in Revelation there is a warning not to either add or subtract from, the Holy Bible?
“We (LDS) are believers in Jesus Christ and followers of Christ. Doesn’t seem inaccurate to therefore call ourselves Christians.”
Yea, but the false created one...
Who is Jesus? Is he the spiritual brother of Satan?
The LDS folks I've known in the past decade or so feel that way but it was those who I knew twenty or more years ago who didn't want to be called Christian. Which is what I was wondering about because I don't know when that changed or why. Do you any idea when that might have been and why?
The Sovereign, I Am bump.
First of all, we're dealing with broad labels. Jesus had disciples who were zealots; tax collectors; etc.
I'm sure some of those "identity labels" faded as they grew to know who Jesus truly was. And that's also possible of "Mormon" as an identity label.
#2, Vigilanteman you of all people should know that as the liberals try to redefine the family and redefine marriage (trying to call homosexual unions as "marriage"), that boundaries exist.
If every union is a "marriage" then nothing is a marriage. It loses its distinctiveness. If every relationship constitutes a "family" then labor unions are "families" and any mix or match.
If every religion="Christianity," then you'd have to conclude that...
...a fundamentalist Mormon-is-a-Mormon-is-a-Christian-is-a-Jonestownite-is-a-Branch-Davidian-is-a-Heavens-Gate-ian-is-a-Urantia believer-is a Church Universal & Triumphant-is-a-Wicca-Witch-is-Voodoo practioner-is-a-New-Ager-is-a-whirling dervish-is-a-Hindu-is-a-Sikh-is-a-Muslim!
Nice that you advocate, Vigilanteman, by parallel extension of your argument that fundamentalist Mormons and Muslims are "Christian," too!
Norm, which Jesus are you speaking of?
The lds jesus who was once a man or the Biblical eternal Jesus.
The lds jesus who is not sufficient for salvation IE after all we can do or the Biblical Jesus who is sufficient by Grace.
The lds jesus who is the brother of satan or the Biblical Jesus who is not.
And you accuse other of illogic?
Guess that is cool in bizzaro world.
Because they baptize in the name of gods plural -- gods who aren't the ultimate ONE TRUE God.
...and also why the extra book called the “Book of Mormon”, which in Revelation there is a warning not to either add or subtract from, the Holy Bible?
Well, they've added three extra "books" as "scriptures" (Pearl of Great Price; Doctrines & Covenants).
In these books, they portend a distinct way of salvation ("saved by grace AFTER ALL YOU can do" - 2 Nephi 25:23)...
...they redefine "salvation" itself as attaining godhood -- btw, NOT taught in the Book of Mormon and NOT defined in the D&C.
What is also "interesting" is that Mormons in these kind of articles -- and dialogues with Christian leaders -- don't seem to want to finish the phrase they call Christians. What their doctrine really teaches is that we are supposedly Christian "apostates" who embrace 100% "abominable" creeds.
Since they must deem it "polite" not to repeat what their "scriptures" & "teachings" teach in our faces, they just pretend that they teach that Christians are Christians and they are "Christians, too" -- just a distinct form of them.
What they don't usually elaborate in newspaper articles and press releases and dialogues of this nature is commenting on how "corrupt" we are; how and where our creeds are an "abomination" and how we are "apostates."
For instance, if 100% of Christian creeds are an "abomination" -- as Joseph Smith said the unnamed entities told him in the "First Vision" -- why and where is the Apostles Creed abominable?
I challenge any Mormon to elaborate where the Apostles Creed sharply disagrees with Mormon theology. [Please note that at the time the Apostles Creed was written the word "catholic" -- small "c" -- meant "universal"...and not Roman Catholic].
It makes as much sense as Catholics demanding to be called Muslims, while still practicing Catholicism.
Normandy, if a FREEPER came on with the moniker "Jesus Christ," does that make him THE Jesus Christ?
Does Romney bearing the "R" title make himself a Republican? Isn't the acronym "RINO" there for a good reason?
Can -- say any XYZ religion -- make up attributes and an identity of a purely fictional "Jesus Christ who just doesn't exist in reality?
Yes or no to these three questions?
You see...too many made the mistake of confusing christs. 2 Cor. 11:4 says there is "another Jesus."
Jesus himself said in Matt. 24 that as we got closer to the end times, more false christs would be presented as the real deal.
What makes you think Mormons embrace the very same "Jesus Christ" when -- as my next post shows -- they don't align? (And even your Lds "prophet" Hinckley agreed that they don't align!)
I think I’ll just point to my tagline.
I'm sure Normandy has had opportunity to read the following. I've posted it numerous times before. But I know some FREEPERS and lurkers have not seen it. Therefore, I post again.
What it shows is that when we say Mormons follow "another" Jesus, we're not just arriving at this conclusion out of thin air. It has some basis. And even an Lds "prophet" named Hinckley agreed with us! Even the official Lds magazine Ensign -- published in 1977 -- agreed with us!
****
Lds "prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley: “There are those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.” (LDS Church News, June 20, 1998)
Hinckley again: As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. ("We Look to Christ", from April 2002 General Conference.)
“It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons.” – LDS publication, Ensign Magazine, May 1977, p. 26
So the Mormon official publication says they worship a different Christ...
The Mormon "prophet" said they speak about, believe and acknowledge a different Christ...
Most Christians say they worship, speak of and belief another Jesus...
So. We are all on the same page...so why the few stragglers who are out of harmony???
*****
What is the Difference between the Mormon Jesus and the Biblical Jesus?
I hope this Q&A helps cover the distinctives:
Q1 Isn't the first distinct focus on the Mormon "Jesus" was that he was some unembodied vague "intelligence" even before the Mormon claim that Jesus, like Superman, had parents from another planet?
A Yes. Lds "scriptures" Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33 assign ALL of us eternal status as past-tense intelligences. (So we're ALL supposedly as "eternal" as Jesus is)
Q2 Well about what about once the Mormon "Jesus" got to the spirit baby stage? Comparing so-called "spirit babies" born to a mom goddess in heaven, what difference was there between the "Jesus spirit baby" and the supposed rest of us "spirit babies" born to such a mom goddess?
A Mere spiritual birth order--The Mormon Jesus supposedly having been birth first in some "pre-existent world"
Q3 What about the Earthly Origins of the Mormon Christ?
A * Place of birth: Jerusalem (vs. Bible pinpointing it as Bethlehem).
* The Mormon Jesus was twice made a son of God via Mary 'cause Lds say Heavenly Father was the literal paternal father of the conceived Jesus;
* The Mormon Jesus only became God's "only begotten Son" upon conception within Mary. Not so: Jesus, as the Son of God from eternity (John 17:5) -- having shared God's glory before the world was -- is God's one and only Son (John 3:18)...the rest of us are mere "adopted" sons -- if we are indeed His.
Q4 Is the Mormon "Jesus" an exalted spirit baby-become-god?
A As noted above, the lds jesus is not the Son of God from eternity past. That "jesus" worked his way up to godhood status. He's not an exalted God-become-man, but an exalted man-become-God. He was an elder spirit bro of Lucifer. Had you or your brother been "first" in that pre-existent spirit world birth order, he could have been Christ!!!
This "jesus" is foreign to the Bible. The Messiah of the Bible shared the glory with the Father in the beginning (John 17:5). This Jesus is THE Son of God, not just a son of God. And THE Son of God did not consider equality with His Father something he couldn't let go of while becoming a man (see Philippians 2). Phil. 2 makes it clear He was already divine, not just a "wannabe" God like Dear Ole Dad.
Q5 Is the True Jesus Christ a 'Saved Being'?
A In contrast to the Mormon christ -- who is but a "saved being"--a mere creature like dear ole Dad, the true Jesus Christ is eternal!
The 'Mormon' Jesus: "Christ is a saved being” (lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257)
“Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a saved being...” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234)
Please also see...
* McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”)
* McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72
I'm sorry, but the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).
Q6 Is the Mormon christ just one savior among many?
Yes. Admittedly this is currently publicly downplayed -- but to Lds directly -- baptism of/for the dead has been played up by Lds "prophets" from Joseph Smith to Joseph Fielding Smith to others as THE most important individual responsibility there is -- wrapping that responsibility up in their own works-driven salvation:
Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith: “But greater than all this, so far as our individual responsibilities are concerned, the greatest is to become SAVIORS, in our lesser degree which is assigned us, for the dead who have died without a knowledge of the Gospel. Joseph Smith said, ‘The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us, is to seek after our dead’…It will suffice here to say that the Lord has placed upon us this responsibility of seeing that our dead receive the blessings of the Gospel. Said Joseph Smith: ‘Those saints who neglect it, in behalf of their deceased relatives, do it at the peril of their own salvation.’” (The Way to Perfection, pp. 153-154)
Lds "prophet" John Taylor: ...we are the only people that know how to SAVE our progenitors, how to SAVE OURSELVES, and how to SAVE our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).
Joseph Fielding Smith again: "... mortals have to BE SAVIORS on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead." (The Way to Perfection, p. 325)
Taylor again: "We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to BE SAVIORS FOR THEM by being baptized for them in the flesh,, that they may live according to God in the Spirit." (March 20,1870, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870)
No, "saviors of the world" are NOT plentiful per the Bible (see 1 John 4:14; John 4:42).
Q7 How were our sins atoned for? By sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane?
A Lds leaders have constantly de-emphasized the cross of Christ by pointing to the garden, where Jesus sweat blood, as the place of atonement.
Q8 Did the Mormon "jesus" really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature?
A No, if you take merely the Mormon Articles of Faith -- Article #2.
Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church:
From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church...
Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN)
The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."]
The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency."
Also, the Mormon leaders accuse Jesus of having rather anemic blood:
"Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135)
"Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93).
So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism.
Q9 Was the Mormon Jesus a creature before He was a 'Creator'?
A Yes. The Bible assigns Jesus as being the Creator of All Things & All Beings -- whereas the Mormon "Jesus" is Simply a spirit Creature offspring of Kolobian parents.
Compare that to the Jesus of the Bible Who created ALL things--including all angels...including even Lucifer (see Heb 1; John 1; Col. 1:16; see even D&C 93:9-10).
Q10 Why do Mormons downplay the uniqueness of Jesus?
A Because of their unique doctrine that
(a) we were all eternal;
(b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus;
(c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation";
(d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people;
(e) all temple Mormons become gods.
(f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship.
The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!)
Q11 Do Mormons worship Jesus?
A It depends upon which Mormon and which Mormon leaders you talk to. Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie advised Lds STRONGLY in 1982 to not worship Jesus.
McConkie must have seized upon the Mormon "scripture" of D&C 20:17-19 as the key verse that would “guide” his pattern of worship once & for all: and that he should be the ONLY BEING whom they should worship ... as he quoted it to BYU students. (See Our relationship with the Lord)
Christians worship this Messiah, just like God told the angels to do in Hebrews 1:6. And I challenge grassroots Mormons to defy their leaders -- like Lds "apostle" McConkie when they tell them NOT to directly worship Jesus (see Mormon 7:7; 2 Nephi 25:29; 4 Nephi 4:37; 3 Nephi 11:17; 3 Nephi 17:10).
I DIRECTLY pray to this Jesus as Stephen did in Acts (7:59) -- and even as the supposed Book of Mormon disciple characters DIRECTLY and repeatedly did to Jesus in 3 Nephi 19: 6-26...again -- a Mormon "scripture" de-emphasized & ignored by Mormon leaders).
Q12 If Mormons do worship Jesus -- and if they deem Jesus a "separate" god than Heavenly Father, doesn't that mean they worship more than one god?
A Yes.
To show you the extent of confusion this has caused even among Mormon leaders, look at "apostle" McConkie's book, Mormon Doctrine:
"Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)
Q13 Wait a minute. Didn't you just get done telling us that McConkie advised BYU students NOT to worship Jesus in 1982?
A Indeed, he did, after saying the above in 1966! But McConkie was so confused, he would say "3" then "2" in the same book...and then eventually settled on "1" by 1982!
McConkie, on p. 848 of Mormon Doctrine, emphasized worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).
Q14 Doesn't the Book of Mormon contradict even the two-god worship theory of McConkie's?
A Yes. Mormon 7:7 reads: 7And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the bworld, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to ddwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
So you can see how confusing this gets...trinitarian theology is found frequently in the Book of Mormon...including worshiping the Holy Spirit!
Q15 Doesn't it all boil down to how many gods you worship?
A Yes.
Thomas calls Jesus his God in John 20:28; even the Joseph Smith's concocted "Nephite disciples" called Jesus “their Lord and God” (3 Nephi 19:18).
And look @ what other Mormon "scriptures" say:
* The D&C says Jesus is God (19:4; 62:1; etc.) Since there’s only one true God in the bible and in the LDS scriptures [for example, the Mormon "scripture" from the Pearl of Great Price says "no God besides me" (1:6)]
* All this means is that either Jesus is a false god or is the one true God. As Jesus Christ is a God to Thomas (John 20:28) -- so Thomas has two gods?
I testify Jesus Christ is my only Lord, my Savior, my God! He is the Only Lord, the Only Savior, the Only True God!
Well, what's interesting is that Mormons use "God" all the time when in reality, their emphasis is on "gods" plural.
It simply becomes a culture "come-on" by them...so that they don't come right out and culturally distinguish themselves off the bat.
For both your average Mormon neighbor that you talk to -- and especially for Mormon missionaries -- it all becomes a "bait and switch" tactic.
They say "God." But they mean a man who was appointed a god of this earth by a "council of gods" plural.
They say "God." But they embrace a whole pantheon of "gods" -- God's "wife" or "wives." That "God" who had a "father-god" and a "grand-god" and a "great-grand god" and a whole host of them! Jesus Christ is another god whom many Mormons do not worship or pray to DIRECTLY (indirectly, yes; directly, no).
The Holy Spirit becomes the oft' untalked-about God in Mormonism. Even though the Book of Mormon says to worship Him (Mormon 7:7), Mormons don't do it formally. (Informally, who knows?)
Since there were no Mormons in Israel at the time of Christ then we have to use his teachings about God’s character and make up.
So to start Jesus taught that God is spirit, Mormons teach that he has a body of flesh and bone. That teaching alone is enough to say its not Christian.
NO! Christians do not "feel that Joseph Smith bridged a chasm that one should not even presume to bridge"....Christians know that Joseph Smith's sect is pure fiction and has nothing at all to do with any bridge to God.
Regards
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