Gay Episcopal Bishop to Preach at San Francisco Catholic Parish

Catholic Culture ^ | 11/22/11

[marshmallow]

A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.

Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.

[rzman21]

Let's take John 15:26, which the Nicene Creed directly quotes from as a prime example of my point because St. Jerome's translation of this verse from Greek into Latin led to the Great Schism of 1054. 26"But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. cum autem venerit paracletus quem ego mittam vobis a Patre Spiritum veritatis qui a Patre procedit ille testimonium perhibebit de me The Latin verb procedere does not directly correspond with the nuances of the Greek, which means to send. 26Ὅταν ἔλθῃ ὁ παράκλητος ὃν ἐγὼ πέμψω ὑμῖν παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας ὁ παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκπορεύεται, The Greek word, however, means to come out of and take origin from. http://concordances.org/greek/ekporeuetai.htm The Latins didn't understand the culture or the context of the Greek, which led them to add "and the Son" to the Latin translation of the creed. This inexact translation obscures the role of the Father as the source of the Trinity. And we ended up dividing Eastern and Western Christianity as a result of this simple mistranslation and misunderstanding of the context. Nuance matters when you read your Bible.

[RnMomof7]

Clothing and handkerchiefs are second-class relics. I gave you the scripture on relics, but you are unshakably bound to your non-biblical traditions. You prefer the testimony of Calvin over St. Ambrose and St. Augustine.

!st Peter was not dead... he was living and scripture does not say that ANYONE was 'healed" by His shadow.. (i know that means it must be true to a catholic:)

The hankie/apron of Paul it is recorded as being used in exorcism /healing...

It would seem that God used such things to affirm Pauls Apostleship ... Once again the hankie was not a relic.. Paul was alive and the glory went to God so that the name of Christ was magnified and the books of spells and potions and magic of the sorcerers were burned.. We never hear of that hankie again.. unlike the relics paraded around Roman churches as gods..

I prefer to obey God and return the bodies of the dead to the soil where they can return to dust to await the resurrection..

[RnMomof7]

That was a miracle resurrection not men digging up old bones to sell

[Judith Anne]

Anything except believing ther plain word of Matthew.

[RnMomof7]

>>Bingo. What you say here is precisely what Catholics and Orthodox believe about the relics of the saints, which is why we venerate them. God uses physical objects as means of his grace.

No not "just like " the Rcs and orthodox.. they did not dig up the bones, parade them around kneel before them, kiss them and expect and teach further miracles would occur

It is idolatry... spiritual adultery ..do not say on that day you have not been warned

[metmom]

Your claiming personal infallibility is evident in your refusal to consider the possibility that you are misinterpreting the Bible.

Pure conjecture. Show me where I stated it or stop pretending to read my mind.

You are committing a serious error in presuming your salvation. It doesn’t happen in an instant.

Sure it does because I have died and my life is now hidden with Christ in God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Colossians 1:11-14 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 2:11-14 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Colossians 3:3 3For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

1 John 5:11-13 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

You have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. It’s a process.

How disingenuous to quote only part of a sentence. YOPIOS, no doubt. Take it in context and finish the thought and you'll see how badly anything can be misinterpreted by cherry picking sentences and passages of Scripture.....

Philippians 2:12-13 12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Which would then leave me something to boast about before God. But it's not by works of any kind but by His mercy and grace as a GIFT. It's God working IN me to produce fruit, not me adding my works to earn my salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Galatians 3:1-6 1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?

How old were you when you left the Catholic Church?

Twenty-two.

[RnMomof7]

Tell me what the plain word says again??? Does it say the apostles went around to dig up the bones of the dead Saints so that they could be paraded around ? Or did it say GOD opened the graves and the dead were resurrected as a TESTIMONY to Christ

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened ; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose

Could be Judith that One more time God wanted to affirm the purpose of the OT was to point to Christ??,

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

[RnMomof7]

You have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. It’s a process.

Out of context scripture is an affront to God...

1st the DOES NOT SAY .."work out TO BE SAVED.. the scripture says they ARE ALREADY SAVED..

This is about walking the christian walk

Now in context

Phl 2:12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure

The terms beloved or brother are the terms used by the apostles for the saved

This is not talking about getting saved..it is talking about their walk...

RZ..when will you know you are good enough and have done enough to be saved??

[daniel1212]

But the difference is that Protestant will not readily accept the fallibility of their understanding of the Bible. That is quite evident on these boards where Protestant posters routinely dodge questions about their interpretation of the Bible.

The answer always is other scripture verses that dodge the question and where the poster pretends that he or she is God by posting verses without context in a very SUBJECTIVE fashion.

We see in Scripture God leading souls to truth without an assuredly infallible magisterium, as for wresting Scripture, you seem to be new here, but this can be true, yet i have extensively engaged Catholics which do just that, being not bound by context, as they feel free to extrapolate what they need to show support for teachings, even if Rome has not defined these verses as teaching what they support, and when their own Bible commentary interprets them differently, and even if it is only changeable church law. Yet the fact that Catholics or Prots do as you charge does not negate the premise that God leads souls to know truth as they personally prayerfully search, by conflation with Scripture and Scriptural supernatural means of confirmation (i presume here that you have read my other recent posts).

And while Catholics hold that you can only have surety of truth by assent of faith to the assuredly infallible magisterium of Rome, and that prayerful use of his human reasoning, which Christ appealed to, in examining evidence cannot provide certainty, what they avoid is their own lack of certainty, for their own conversion to Rome (or faith decision to affirm) was based on such “Protestant” means, and thus unless they require a prior assent of faith is necessary to place faith in Rome, then at best they made a fallible human decision to trust in an supposedly assuredly infallible magisterium, and continue to do so.

Like us, Catholics can only claim that the conclusion of their use of fallible human reasoning was confirmed (and thus they no longer need to use reason to know infallibly defined truths), yet then they still lack an assuredly infallible interpreter of their magisterium, like as they charge we lack for the Bible.

In practical application, the living magisterium still leaves Catholics lacking surety and engaging in much interpretation if they really place a priority on knowing for sure what is infallibility and what to believe, while what Rome overall fosters is implicit trust in herself to save her own nominal members, despite typically being ignorant and misunderstanding much.

And while compressive doctrinal unity was ever a goal not realized, yet along with divisions, evangelicals do overall have a common assent and contention for basic core truths, which separates them from cults, and their laity show more unity in many moral views and truths than their Roman Catholic counterparts.

But a Catholic can with great confidence embrace the teaching of the Church on matters of UNIVERSAL importance.

“Great confidence” is of no avail to the Catholic polemic, which is that we need absolute certitude which only their AIM can provide, even though this is not how Scripture was established and truth was preserved in Scripture even before there was a church in Rome.

Even the number of ecumenical councils post-1054 is open to debate because councils like Trent and Vatican I were really only councils of the Western Church without participation of the Christian East.

So you have debate. Nothing new here.

Nontheless the Council of Trent’s anathemas against Protestantism stand as infallible because the Orthodox subsequently held their own synods that stated the same thing as Trent about Protestant beliefs.

Here again there is interpretive disagreement, on an infallible statement, even among Roman Catholic apologists, and which i have seen expressed right on FR.

“In particular, the statement that anathemas were "put on all non-Catholics" is incorrect. In fact, the anathemas were only put on Catholics. You had to be a "card carrying Catholic" in order to "qualify." Anathemas never applied to non-Catholics. Anathema was the most severe form of excommunication. Someone can't be "ex-communion-icated" if they were never in communion with the Church in the first place. Also, the canonical penalty of Anathema was removed from Canon Law (Catholic Church law) in 1983. It is not in the Catechism.” http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/anathemas.htm

Also under dispute is how much of Trent was infallible teaching, among other declarations.

Details such as the canonicity of 3 Maccabees could be dealt with at a future reunion council with the Orthodox.

Among other issues on which “Tradition” is correct between two tradition-based churches. And as said, Rome may claim universal jurisdiction (and even the power of coercive punishment) but effectively she is just one of many who claim to be the OTC, based upon “infallible” interpretation of the information they use to find warrant this claim.

St. Vincent of Lerins succinctly describes how a Catholic should search for the truth in his Commonitorium on the Catholic Faith, which was written around 430 AD...[.

This leaves out the details, and the above does not affirm all what of Rome professes (as even the EOs will tell you), as the CFs disagreed on things with each other and with what Rome holds.

Those matters that fall outside of this consensus are open to debate and discussion because the above is the criteria for deciding what is infallible and what isn’t.

Not only, but upon deeper investigation what even is infallible and its meaning is subject to some interpretation.

Even the Pope is himself subject to this dicta

The pope and the infallible magisterium can claim what they want, such as acting according to the required “unanimous consent” of the fathers,” but as she claims to infallibly decree what is consistent with the past, and which decrees cannot be wrong — nor is assurance of their infallibility dependent on the weight of arguments for them — then such claims of conformity are simply claims.

As already given from no less a Roman Catholic Theologians as Cardinal Manning,

It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine....I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness. Its past is present with it, for both are one to a mind which is immutable. Primitive and modern are predicates, not of truth, but of ourselves.

The acts of the undisputed ecumenical councils with the Orthodox show the Pope speaking definitively with the rest of the Church.

But also based upon the past, the EOs reject papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction, among other things,

So Papal infallibility is inseparable from ecclesiastical infallibility. The Universal Church is a standing council even when it isn’t formally convoked. The Orthodox believe the latter.

And Rome does not believe the pope is subject to councils, and if he ex cathedra declares the church always believed something, or the IM does, then it is held as true, even if it did not. Truth by fiat, while we must persuade "by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God." (2 Corinthians 4:2; cf. 5:11) To God be the glory.

And while compressive doctrinal unity was ever a goal not realized, along with divisions, evangelicals do overall a common assent and contention for basic core truths, which separates them from cults, and their laity show more unity in many moral views and truths than their Roman Catholic counterparts.

[Judith Anne]

Could be, Rinny, that God wanted to unmistakeably affirm the special status of Mary, who always points to Christ, and who is called bless-ed by all generations.

[metmom]

GMTA

[daniel1212]

Jesus made people think, versus practicing discipleship by dictation, and that is the problem behind your polemic. When you read what i wrote, and figure out how souls came to know of a truth things were from God without an assuredly infallible magisterium,, including scripture then you might understand not simply what types of persons preach truth, and affirm what scripture consists of, but how one is assured that are preaching truth, and which is the real issue.

[metmom]

Could be, Rinny, that God wanted to unmistakeably affirm the special status of Mary, who always points to Christ, and who is called bless-ed by all generations.

Catholics and Catholicism again usurping the role of the Holy Spirit with Mary and attributing to her the characteristics of the Godhead.

John 16:13-14 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

[RnMomof7]

Could be, Rinny, that God wanted to unmistakeably affirm the special status of Mary, who always points to Christ, and who is called bless-ed by all generations.

Show me where the Bible says Mary always points to Christ??

She needed the Holy Spirit just as did everyone elses in the upper room.. and after that she ia never heard of again in the scriptures leaving us to know she went home and lived a quiet life ....

[RnMomof7]

???

[Judith Anne]

Protestants and Calvinists just cannot handle a sinless Jewish girl having more status than they do, presenting the Holy Babe to the shepherds, wise men, the steward at the wedding of Cana, present at the crucifixion and resurrection, and in the upper room with the apostles.

And Calvin not even knowing that the dead rose when the temple veil was rent? LOLOL!

[narses]

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

[Judith Anne]

Thanks, narses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmq-HRU_AIU

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

thanks for the laugh, was it Shakespeare who said:

“full of sound and fury, signifying nothing”?

you could have saved yourself much time and effort by typing the word “no” to my question.

how come it took until the 16th century until “souls came to know of a truth things from God”?

seems odd to me.

[CynicalBear]

>>Catholics and Catholicism again usurping the role of the Holy Spirit with Mary<<

Catholics put so much into one verse to try to promote man made doctrine but forget how the rest of scripture relates.

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Judges 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be,