Gay Episcopal Bishop to Preach at San Francisco Catholic Parish

Catholic Culture ^ | 11/22/11

[marshmallow]

A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.

Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.

[metmom]

Unlike you, we don’t presume my own infallibility when we read the Bible.

I never claimed to be infallible in my interpretation. Show me where I claimed that.

Most of Scripture is not that hard to understand and the Holy Spirit will enlighten you to the rest, if you ask Him.

There are issues that some people get all bent out of shape about that I haven't decided where I stand on yet and you know what? It doesn't affect my salvation. That is settled in heaven sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of my redemption.

What's important is this......

Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Romans 10:5-13 5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

8But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Once you are saved, you are God's responsibility. It's up to Him to correct your theology and lead you into all truth.

[metmom]

You speak for me as well.

[RnMomof7]

Jesus did not ever make a disclaimer to the words He spoke in John 6 and on the night before He died, He showed the Apostles how this “hard saying” would come to be.

If we go to John 5-6 we see Jesus on route to celebrate the passover in Jerusalem . As He travels He is attracting crowds that He is teaching ... He sees they are physically hungry and He feeds them with a few fish and loaves of bread .

After that miracle the crowds continued to follow Him. But they were not following Him because they were looking for a Savior, they followed Him to be fed by another miracle .

At this point Jesus rebukes them and He draws a Passover reference for them (remember that is where He was going ) He told them that Moses and the bread were a "type" pointing to Him.. The Israelites were fed manna in the desert as they followed Moses, that fed them physically.. But the He is the bread that will give men eternal life that the Father has sent .

We see that the unleavened bread of the Passover meal, that was done as a memorial of the salvation of the Jewish people in the desert , is a sign..a prophetic meal pointing to Christ.

Now move to the final passover meal..it is final because the prophesy is fulfilled shortly after it

Jesus holds up the bread...the remembrance of the manna in the desert and reveals the prophetic nature of it..He says THIS is my body ... He then tells them to now do this in memory of HIM no longer the passover. The passover is fulfilled

The Lord did not hesitate to say: “This is My Body”, when He wanted to give a sign of His body” (Augustine, Against Adimant). He [Christ] committed and delivered to His disciples the figure of His Body and Blood” (Augustine, on Psalm 3).

> [The sacraments] bear the names of the realities which they resemble. As, therefore,in a certain manner the sacrament of Christ's body is Christ's body, and the sacrament of Christ's blood is Christ's blood” (Augustine, Letter 98, From Augustine to Boniface).

[RnMomof7]

Met mom asked?....****What about living forever? Catholics claim that they eat the actual flesh and blood of Jesus but here He says that anyone who does will never die. Are we switching between literal and spiritual in mid-sentence? Or do Catholics plan on literally living forever in the physical bodies that physically eat the physical body and blood of Jesus?****

You responded
I believe in the immortality of the soul and the resurrection of the body.

So do you believe in annihilation ? Will not the unsaved be raised in the final resurrection? Will they not also live forever??

[CynicalBear]

>>In fact, we had to memorize, not Scripture, but catechism questions and answers.<<

I think that’s pretty much universal to all denominations and religions from what I can tell. I grew up in Protestant church and it was pretty much the same. Typically a verse along with a lengthy statement from church “catechism”. My father was an avid Bible reader and that is where I got the inspiration to read for myself. I soon learned that what was being taught was not always agreeing with what scripture was saying.

[metmom]

I don’t think I even ever touched a Bible until I got saved and bought one. I don’t recall that we had one laying around the house either.

Outside of the random passages of Scripture that were read in mass, I had ZERO exposure to it and had been thoroughly taught that I couldn’t understand it anyway so I never bothered pursuing the matter....

Until I got saved.

[RnMomof7]

I too memorized the catechism ( the now out of popularity baltimore )..

I actually have no problem with that. Children need a theological/doctrinal foundation or they end up not knowing the difference between a mormon and a Christian ..

BUT I do beieve that woven into that process should be the memorization of co ordinated scripture verses..

Like so many formers here I did not read or understand the scriptures until I was saved .. But scripture does tell us that doesn't it?

[RnMomof7]

However, the report was certainly passed along verbally and perhaps through written documents since lost. Relics of all the Apostles and martyrs were greatly sought after by early Christians for miraculous healing power and Mary's relics would have been the most highly prized of all. The unavailability of Mary's relics or records of her relics is solid evidence that her body was never buried according to the standard practice. Given that, the most likely scenario (and the historically chronicled report) was her bodily assumption into heaven. At least it is the most likely scenario for any Christian who accepts the reality of miracles.

Not all miracles are from God..Satan does miracles as well..those that look to dead mans bones or that look to anyone but Christ commit adultery

Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. Mat 12:39

[metmom]

The unavailability of Mary's relics or records of her relics is solid evidence that her body was never buried according to the standard practice.

Absence of relics or solid evidence that her body was buried is meaningless.

Only pure conjecture or speculation can conclude anything from that.

[mas cerveza por favor]

Satan does miracles as well..those that look to dead mans bones or that look to anyone but Christ commit adultery

You mean when the bones of the prophet Eliseus brought a man back to life (2 Kings 13:21), that was the Devil? No. It is Christ who heals through the relics of his saints and prophets. I realize that Protestants disapprove of Him healing in this way, but that did not stop Him from healing through Eliseus' bones, St. Paul's handkerchiefs (Acts 19:12), or St. Peter's shadow (Acts 5:15).

All Church Fathers universally cherished the relics of saints and martyrs.

[mas cerveza por favor]

Absence of relics or solid evidence that her body was buried is meaningless.

Absence of relics is solid evidence that her body was not buried. This evidence supports the testimony of Greek Father St. John of Damascus, champion of the Assumption.

[RnMomof7]

All Church Fathers universally cherished the relics of saints and martyrs.

Peters shadow and peters hankie were NOT RELICS...

Please show me where the apostles used the bones of dead men to heal anyone..

On Elisha, indeed a dead man was revived when he was physically placed in the presence of the dead prophet .....The bible does not tell us that it was the power of the dead prophets bones.. or anything within the bones themselves .. Just as God had honored the prophet Elijah by taking Him away in the sight of men .. He honored Elisha by causing this miracle to honor this prophet

This is the only recorded miracle caused by a dead mans bones ..there is no record that these bones were then taken up, no other miracles are recorded by these bones,, they were not put on the altar, or knelt before, or kissed or placed in a special display box..

..We have been warned... Mat 12:39 But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

"The first Christians left the bodies of the saints in their graves, obeying the universal sentence, that all flesh is dust, and TO DUST IT MUST RETURN, and did not attempt their resurrection before the appointed time by raising them in pomp and state. This example has not been followed by their successors; on the contrary, the bodies of the faithful, in opposition to the command of God, have been disinterred in order to be glorified, when they ought to have remained in their places of repose awaiting the last judgment." CALVIN

[mas cerveza por favor]

Clothing and handkerchiefs are second-class relics. I gave you the scripture on relics, but you are unshakably bound to your non-biblical traditions. You prefer the testimony of Calvin over St. Ambrose and St. Augustine.

[Judith Anne]

Matthew 27 shows Calvin to be unscriptural and a liar: 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

“you didn’t”

oh, i get it. there is someone who can infallibly proclaim the canon of Scripture, you know who it is, but you just don’t want to share this info.

do i understand you now?

[blue-duncan]

“The unavailability of Mary’s relics or records of her relics is solid evidence that her body was never buried according to the standard practice. Given that, the most likely scenario (and the historically chronicled report) was her bodily assumption into heaven.”

Based on your argument I guess the same could be said of Jimmy Hoffa.

[RnMomof7]

LOL

[rzman21]

Your claiming personal infallibility is evident in your refusal to consider the possibility that you are misinterpreting the Bible.

Scriptural hermaneutics requires an understanding of the underlying original language along with an understanding of the culture and times in which they were written.

Otherwise you are simply imposing your prejudices on the text.

You are committing a serious error in presuming your salvation. It doesn’t happen in an instant.

You have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. It’s a process.

How old were you when you left the Catholic Church?

[rzman21]

The bible does not tell us that it was the power of the dead prophets bones.. or anything within the bones themselves .. Just as God had honored the prophet Elijah by taking Him away in the sight of men .. He honored Elisha by causing this miracle to honor this prophet

>>Bingo. What you say here is precisely what Catholics and Orthodox believe about the relics of the saints, which is why we venerate them. God uses physical objects as means of his grace.

The Evangelical Protestant God is out there somewhere. It’s not too difficult to see how Calvinism in New England degenerated into Unitarianism and Deism within 150 years of the pilgrims landing on Plymouth rock.

[rzman21]

Michael Voris has a few good videos about Cafeteria Catholicism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvLoaYB3HxY

False Christs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ5OIHUsg_Y