Posted on 11/18/2011 6:13:09 AM PST by Alex Murphy
Next Thursday, as the rest of us tuck into our turkey feasts, hundreds of needy families in Southern California will open "Boxes of Love." Delivered by several churches led by Pacific Crossroads in Santa Monica, Calif., the boxes contain ingredients for a Thanksgiving meal for six. They allow impoverished families to skip food lines and neighborhood pantries and enjoy the holiday in their own homes.
What's unusual about the Pacific Crossroads congregation—and what underpins efforts such as Boxes of Love—is its theologically conservative raison d'être. A member church of the Presbyterian Church in America, Pacific Crossroads is committed to Reformation doctrines such as total depravity (every person is born sinful) and limited atonement (salvation is available only to the elect). These beliefs are typically regarded as ugly and inhumane by American culturati. Yet the church's pastor, Rankin Wilbourne, is happy to pepper his sermons with references to Bono and "Jersey Shore," and the church has grown to around 1,500 members from 500 in three years.
[SNIP]
And so in a city more often associated with Calvin Klein, John Calvin's teachings provide a basis for hope. In his commentary on II Corinthians 8, the 16th-century Swiss theologian connected Christians' assurance of salvation with their freedom to give to the poor:
"What makes us more close-handed than we ought to be is when we look too carefully, and too far forward, in contemplating the dangers that may occur—when we are excessively cautious and careful—when we calculate too narrowly what we will require during our whole life, or, in fine, how much we lose when the smallest portion is taken away. The man that depends upon the blessing of the Lord has his mind set free from these trammels and has, at the same time, his hands opened for beneficence."
(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...
No. When I was overseas, AFN would play the football games late. If I listened to the news on the radio, I knew what the score would be, but I would not compel it."
Welcome to the fray, Mark.
Please...to liken God's foreknowledge to hearing a score on the radio before one watched it is, well, laughable. Both of you should know better.
The foreknowledge of God of which the Scriptures speaks is displayed in Moses' trek to Pharaoh. God orders Moses to go and tell the king, "Let my people go." But, by the way Moses, I will harden his heart to say, "No."
Now, who won the Army-Navy game? I mean, if one does not catch the manipulation of history here, one has his head so trained to love "free will" that they cannot, no will not, hear this episode is (and all episodes are) being played out as God's script. That is how God by His predetermined plan got His own Son crucified on the precise day needed to fulfill prophecy. The Scriptures are replete with such manipulation and control.
If a prophet knew that something was going to happen, the reason his claim came to pass is the event was fixed in the future. He was just granted a peek into that future. A future just as fixed as the past is to us non-prophets. If men actually had "free will" (in the sense of the ability to make decisions absent the complete influence by God), then no prophet could possibly say, "This will happen tomorrow." What if the players decided to attend the Army-Navy game, instead?
The number of possible derailments from a prophet's predicted outcome are beyond infinite, if each man's decisions could be nearly infinite. Add the infinite possibilities of the weather, a rock falling from the ledge, a big dog scaring the man away and you have no possibility of a prophet getting anything right. Not if every man is truly free in every decision. Not even God can know. Well, then what did the prophet "see"? And, if God knows every outcome, what does He see?
And, don't claim that even if a fixed outcome were true, it need not imply God designed it. In Who else do we live and move and exist? Acts 17. The bizarre thing is that in spite of all the texts which tell us of God's absolute control, a believer might want it any other way.
Possibly the misunderstanding came from reading I Hesitations -
The dice are thrown in the lap, but their every outcome is from the Army-Navy game played on the radio.
The king's heart is like channels of water to the Lord, He turns it wherever He thinks the game is going to air.
Come on, fellas. The "free will"/randomness world belongs to the misunderstandings of the pagans. The believers in Christ actually think God is God.
That’s your interpretation.
I guess you think all the protestants and the people they have converted all over the world are not saved.
Otherwise, what are you complaining about.
Sounds like you are in a cult, rather than a Christendom.
The pope cannot define who is saved or not saved (no matter what proclaimattions he administers).
Only Jesus Christ can proclaim who is his.
Every earthbound church has errors. I suggest that since you are rooting for the Catholic church you should not cast stones, because the Catholics have plenty of extra-biblical behaviors.
Catholics don’t believe that the Pope decides who is saved or who isn’t.
Who is or who is not saved is known only to God alone.
Infallibility doesn’t equal impeccability. Only that the Church’s dogmatically defined teachings in matters of faith and morals are protected by the Holy Spirit from error.
The first generation of the Protestant revolt as far as I can see was not from God.
What is your definition of a cult?
The Pope of Rome is a servant of Tradition and the Scriptures.
The average Protestant is his or her own Pope and Ecumenical Council.
Protestants are constantly changing their Biblical interpretations. Contraception comes to mind.
Contraception is not even a central issue. But, if you believe tangential issues are important doctrinal matters, please review your so-called "Servant's" maleable views on celibacy of the clergy during the past centuries. Seems you folks are all over the map.
Papal infallibility is not biblical, and has been proven wrong (Popes have reversed themselves, and other Popes).
The world cult, as in culture - has many varied definitions, but in this case, I mean in the way of a group of individuals who view the world as an “us” vs “them”, where “them” are those excluded by their leader.
For example, when the Pope declares who is saved or not. — apparently you are not aware for many years many popes have declared this.
To the Roman Catholic, “ex cathedra” (Latin for ‘from the seat’) statements are as infallible as the Bible. This infallibility rests on the Pope’s supreme authority as St. Peter’s successor. Here are three of the “infallible” declarations which exercised the “ex cathedra” and were placed alongside the authority of the Bible:
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215).
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unan Snactam, 1302).
“[The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only Pagans, but Jews, heretics, and schismatics, can never be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into eternal fire ‘prepared for the devil and his angels’, unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church” [Pope Eugene IV, The Bull Cantate Domino, 1441).
Now, either these popes (3) were WRONG (which destroys papal infallibility, or you agree with their statements — which one is it?)....
You don't seem to realize that those Catholics who dumped your religion did it willingly...
And why did they do that???
It's because they finally heard and ultimately read what God really had to say about Himself and them, which contradicted what your religion taught them...
Even now, people who trust Jesus as their Savior could never trust your Church to be their savior...These Reformers go right to the head of the church, Jesus Christ...As a result, they are put into the church, the Body of Christ, by Jesus...
Obviously you don't believe someone can go directly to Jesus and bypass your religion...Well, we've studied the scriptures and we know better...You guys obviously do not study the scriptures but get your theology from the same bunch who were in charge when the Reformation started...
So you've got the same choice as anyone else...Keep doing what you are doing or pick up the God breathed words in the scriptures and find out why the Reformers reformed...
No, my FRiend, they are not both true. By intent, these two perspectives are mutually exclusive. The law of the excluded middle and "a is not non-a" and all of that. The perspective painted by the Scriptures is that God has designs and executes everything that occurs; He really is Sovereign and Transcendent. That is why He can tell believers that He is causing all things to work together for good for those of us called according to His purpose. This is monumental for confidence in the future.
Unfortunately (?), while God has decided to hold us accountable for our decisions, they are not ours, "alone". This struggle is what Paul anticipates in Rom. 9, when he says, "You will say to me then, 'How can He still find fault?' for who resists His will?" Yes, good question.
Answer: Too bad, get over it. He can do whatever He wants; remember He is God, not you. And, because He is the definition of just, we are to bend the knee.
This is often the reason for a strong Arminianism in a person. They simply cannot allow such deprication of themselves. They need to feel the power of "their" choices. That they are manipulated seems too demeaning. So, they settle for the the mish-mash of both answers. The world laughs at such goofy tendencies...which of course is itself even managed by God. The thing which you perceive as "choice", is the outcome of you being managed by your Hevenly Father...for good or evil. If you are among the elect, then good; if not, then evil.
No, they are not competing, at all. One is right, the other wrong. By holding to, "a little bit of both", you have opted for the "free will" view. There is no middle ground other than in your imagination.
That you wish not to discuss this with familiy members who hold differing views does not change that divine determinism is what the Scriptures describe. And, of course, it calls you to do this thing we call "choosing". The question is...what is happening while you are doing so.
This, incidentally, is not Calvinism. And, it is not Pauliolatry. That Calvin described what Paul's argument was simply points out that it has been around since God divulged it to Paul. It is God's view.
Christ saves through his Church, not by some individualistic self-absorbed encounter that is solely dependent on the hearer.
The so-called “Reformation” created a NEW religion that was as much of a break from historic Christianity as Mormonism was a break from historic Protestantism.
Why don’t you call it what it was the Protestant Revolution?
There wasn’t a reform. Luther and Calvin were the 16th century equivalents of Robespierre and Lenin.
I stand by my statement.
Papal succession is a doctrine of man. To use it to claim you are “the” church is indeed cultish.
So is Sola Scriptura.
Protestant theological relativism is the mother of all subsequent relativism.
Then all of the Early Christians were part of a cult, so I’ll have to take it as a compliment.
Sola Scriptura iS NOT a man-made doctrine.
You should read your bible!!!!
Do you know what verse declares Sola Scriptura?
What does it say should happen to those who ADD to the bible?
“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”
—Revelation 22:18-19
His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself (Psalm 119:160)
So if God wanted more teaching, he would have ADDED it to the New or Old Testaments, not waiting around 500, 800, 1500 years to be written in a Papal Bull.
...which is exactly what Christ told the Rich Young Ruler.
oh wait....
I do read my Bible. My Bible led me to reject Sola Scriptura.
Besides Sola Scriptura is only your interpretation, so it is a man-made doctrine.
You will be hard pressed to find any ancient Christian or Jewish Biblical commentators who discuss it.
The prohibition in Revelation is about adding to the Book of Revelation not to a study of the deposit of divine revelation.
Maybe had Jesus taught Sola Scriptura his disciples would have thought fit to teach it instead of leave it to a band of rebels 1,500 years later to invent it.
The Word of God has always been understood as both Oral and Written.
Perhaps I misspoke. How about leave it to subjective feelings.
Then go, and enjoy your traditions, papal bulls, etc.
I, for one, will rely on my bible, and the priesthood of the believer, working out my own salvation with fear and trembling (look that scripture up).
God will provide any information (light) I need (see Romans 1).
I don’t trust anything of man (be he bishop, pastor, pope or king)
Sola Scriptura? 2 Timothy 3:15-17 SHOULD put the argument to rest, once and for all. It doesn’t, but it SHOULD. If that isn’t proof of sola scriptura, I don’t know what is.
I’ll respond to your earlier post when I finish the response. However this:
“This is often the reason for a strong Arminianism in a person. They simply cannot allow such deprication of themselves. They need to feel the power of “their” choices.”
is folly.
I’ve never met a non-Calvinist who boasted of being saved by God. However, I have met Calvinists on this forum who say God loves them and hates others...don’t know why, but they are God’s pets. He just LOVES them more.
Why? Smile, shrug...the implication being ‘we’re better than the others, because God loves us more’:
Jesus loves me, yes its true
Jesus loves me more than you!
Jesus says that you’re depraved,
And He won’t let you be saved!
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me
Yes, Jesus loves me
He loves me more than you!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.