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Opinion: Baptists and Authority
Associated Baptist Press ^ | 11/7/11 | David P. Gushee

Posted on 11/07/2011 7:57:34 AM PST by marshmallow

(ABP) -- The sexuality conference in April will raise many issues. But for the theologically minded, the most important issue will probably be the question of religious authority.

Who or what carries binding authority in the Christian life? If the question is, for example, sexual morality, who or what has the authority to establish norms to which Christians must adhere? In a cultural (and ecclesial) context of innumerable conflicting practices and beliefs, who or what has the authority to settle the matter? Or is that even a coherent question? At least, is it a coherent question from within the framework of Baptist ecclesiology and theology?

The winners in the SBC controversy of 1979-1991 claimed that their fight was always about (re)establishing the authority of the “inerrant, infallible Word of God” in the life of the Southern Baptist Convention. They sought to heighten claims first about the inspiration of the Bible and then about its authority in Christian life.

Sometimes, though not always, they acknowledged that it is not quite sufficient to anchor down claims about biblical inspiration and authority. They acknowledged that the Bible is always an interpreted text. Some person, office, or body must be responsible for “rightly dividing the Word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15 KJV). Often referencing pastoral epistle texts, some SBC leaders heightened pastoral interpretive authority along with biblical authority.

So that is one answer to the question of religious authority. Raise belief in the inerrancy and authority of the Bible as high as possible, deflecting all challenges to such belief, then elevate the pastor’s role in authoritatively interpreting the Bible for the congregation. These moves imply if not demand a posture of submission on the part of the lay Christian, who is trained to yield to the authority of Scripture and to the teaching authority of the pastor.

This approach is not all that different from the Catholic tradition -- a comment offered as observation, not criticism. The differences, of course, are that in Catholicism Scripture is treated as the first stage of Spirit-inspired tradition, and Scripture/tradition are interpreted authoritatively by the magisterium of the Church, organized hierarchically and headed by the pope. But both the current SBC and the Catholic approaches emphasize authority rather than freedom, submission to text and leadership rather than individual conscience or collective Christian discernment.

The potential benefits of such authoritative (if not authoritarian) approaches such are especially apparent when wrestling with issues like sexuality. Today all kinds of voices, both from within Christianity and outside it, are begging, cajoling, even demanding that Christians and churches rethink our purportedly oppressive, backwards, unrealistic, archaic sexual ethics. It would be so much easier -- and less stressful -- to simply go back to inerrant-Scripture-as-interpreted-by-pastor or inspired-tradition-as-interpreted-by-pope to resolve these issues.

Looking at some of the alternatives among non-SBC Baptists, in some cases I am really quite concerned. The Bible (at times) slips out of range of ever functioning as authoritative in any way that might compel behavior contrary to our preferences. Pastors (at times) abdicate any role of offering directive moral guidance through sermon or pastoral counsel. Christian tradition (at times) is sloughed off or treated primarily as a source of oppression.

Human beings are created good yet damaged by sin. In Christian morality we do need Scripture, pastor and tradition to help us discern God’s will for our lives. We need some kind of voice speaking to us to which we grant some kind of authority to exhort, correct and redirect our desires.

I believe we need a heightened role for communal Christian discernment, for listening to the voice of the Spirit together as we seek to follow Jesus together. I believe we need to read the signs of the times and hear the voices of marginalized and suffering people, for in their sorrows we can encounter Jesus himself. I do believe that Scripture can be wrongly interpreted and that both pastors and tradition can be and sometimes are quite wrong.

But I do not believe we do well to jettison all authorities outside the freely choosing Christian self, so prone to interpret fallible emotions and desires as divine authorization. Certainly we can and must do better than that.

David Gushee is distinguished university professor of Christian ethics at Mercer University.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: israel; japan; makuya
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To: hellbender
They freely admit that the RCC was corrupt

All men are sinners. But we have the promise of Christ that the Church He established will always teach the truth.

61 posted on 11/07/2011 1:52:33 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive

Is your Church really built on Peter, a sinful man?

Or is your Church built on the foundation of apostles and prophets (e.g., their epistles and historical/revelatory writings) ... with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone?

And is your Church really a hierarchical structure which finds its base in Peter and its center in the Vatican?

Or is your Church an invisible and holy temple, being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit?


62 posted on 11/07/2011 2:04:37 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: FatherofFive
I don't think there are 10,000 versions of the truth. All the major Protestant denominations accept the same creeds as the RCC church. The big divide today is between pagans who deny the divinity of Jesus, and the various denominations who accept him.

I most certainly do read the Scriptures with an open mind. I also read the works of great Catholic apologists like Chesterton & Belloc. I'm not among those here who love to bash the RCC church. The Catholic church and evangelical Protestants stand alone in the gap against secular humanism, against abortion, against the followers of the Evil One who hates mankind because we are made in the image of God, who is jealous that He sacrificed his Son on our behalf. We are opposed by a fallen angel whose intelligence exceeds that of all of us put together. He is cunning and wily. Do not give him encouragement in his divide and conquer strategy.

In what way can we be more "one" than to support the persecuted body of Christ around the world? I applaud the Catholic and Orthodox churches for uniting in support of the persecuted church.

63 posted on 11/07/2011 2:05:39 PM PST by hellbender
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To: Theo
Is your Church really built on Peter, a sinful man?

Yes. Those are the words of Christ. “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18

“The New Testament contains five different metaphors for the foundation of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5–6, Rev. 21:14). One metaphor that has been disputed is Jesus Christ’s calling the apostle Peter "rock": "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).

Some have tried to argue that Jesus did not mean that his Church would be built on Peter but on something else. Some argue that in this passage there is a minor difference between the Greek term for Peter (Petros) and the term for rock (petra), yet they ignore the obvious explanation: petra, a feminine noun, has simply been modified to have a masculine ending, since one would not refer to a man (Peter) as feminine. The change in the gender is purely for stylistic reasons.

These critics also neglect the fact that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and, as John 1:42 tells us, in everyday life he actually referred to Peter as Kepha or Cephas (depending on how it is transliterated). It is that term which is then translated into Greek as petros. Thus, what Jesus actually said to Peter in Aramaic was: "You are Kepha and on this very kepha I will build my Church." http://www.catholic.com/tracts/origins-of-peter-as-pope

64 posted on 11/07/2011 2:23:49 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive

I think our difference is that your regard the church as a human institution headquartered in Rome, whereas I think it is the body of sincere believers everywhere. Some are to be found among Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, and Coptics, but no earthly organization can hold them. Jesus said that His kingdom is not of this world. It is spiritual, not worldly. As Alexander Solzhenitsyn said, the boundary between good and evil runs through every human heart. The Lord has known those He called from the foundation of the universe. He does not need any human outfit to tell him the truth.


65 posted on 11/07/2011 2:32:33 PM PST by hellbender
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To: hellbender
I don't think there are 10,000 versions of the truth.

I can't count them all.

Who has "The Truth?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denomination

Armenian Catholic Church • Belarusian Greek Catholic Church • Bulgarian Catholic Church • Chaldean Catholic Church • Coptic Catholic Church • Croatian Greek Catholic Church • Ethiopian Catholic Church • Georgian Catholic Church • Greek Catholic Church • Hungarian Greek Catholic Church • Italo-Albanian Catholic Church • Macedonian Catholic Church • Maronite Catholic Church • Melkite Catholic Church • Romanian Catholic Church • Russian Catholic Church • Ruthenian Catholic Church (usually called the "Byzantine Catholic Church" in the United States) • Slovak Greek Catholic Church • Syrian Catholic Church • Syro-Malabar Church • Syro-Malankara Catholic Church • Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church • Apostolic Catholic Church • American Catholic Church in the United States • Bosnian Church (no longer in existence) • Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church • Catholic Charismatic Church of Canada • Celtic Catholic Church • Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association • Communion of Christ the Redeemer • Free Catholic Church • Liberal Catholic Church • Mariavite Church • Old Catholic Church • Old Catholic Church of America • Old Catholic Church in Europe • Palmarian Catholic Church • Philippine Independent Church • Polish National Catholic Church • Spiritus Christi • True Catholic Church • Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople o Finnish Orthodox Church o Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church (autonomy not universally recognized) o Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe (autonomy not universally recognized) • Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria • Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch o Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America • Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem o Saint Catherine's Monastery (considered autocephalous by some) • Russian Orthodox Church o Latvian Orthodox Church (semi-autonomous) o Moldovan Orthodox Church (autonomy not universally recognized) o Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) o Japanese Orthodox Church(autonomy not universally recognized) o Chinese Orthodox Church o Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (semi-autonomous; not universally recognized) o Estonian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate (semi-autonomous; not universally recognized) • Serbian Orthodox Church • Macedonian Orthodox Church o Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric • Romanian Orthodox Church o Metropolis of Bessarabia • Bulgarian Orthodox Church • Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church • Cypriot Orthodox Church • Church of Greece • Polish Orthodox Church • Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania (Albanian Orthodox Church) • Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church • Orthodox Church in America (autocephaly not universally recognized) • Greek Old Calendarists • Montenegrin Orthodox Church • Macedonian Orthodox Church • Russian Old Believers • Orthodox-Catholic Church of America (OCCA) • Ukrainian Orthodox Church: o Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church o Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kiev Patriarchy) • Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria o British Orthodox Church o French Coptic Orthodox Church • Syriac Orthodox Church o Jacobite Syrian Christian Church • Armenian Apostolic Church o Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin o Holy See of Cilicia o Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem o Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople • Church of Caucasian Albania (extinct) • Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church • Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church • Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church • The Antiochian Catholic Church in America is theologically aligned with the Oriental Orthodox, but is not in full communion with them, primarily because it ordains women and does not impose celibacy on its bishops. • Celtic Orthodox Church • Sassanid Church (no longer in existence) • Malabar Independent Syrian Church • Church of the East (historical church) o Assyrian Church of the East (successor church) o Ancient Church of the East (successor church) • Hussites o Moravian Church o Unity of the Brethren o Utraquists • Waldensians • Apostolic Lutheran Church of America • Association of Free Lutheran Congregations • Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America • Church of the Lutheran Confession • Concordia Lutheran Conference • Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference o Evangelical Lutheran Church "Concord" (Russia) o Evangelical Lutheran Free Church (Germany) o Evangelical Lutheran Synod (United States) o Lutheran Church of Central Africa Malawi Conference o Lutheran Church of Central Africa Zambia Conference o Ukrainian Lutheran Church o Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (United States) • Evangelical Catholic Church • Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran • Evangelical Lutheran Diocese of North America • International Lutheran Council o American Association of Lutheran Churches o Evangelical Lutheran Church - Synod of France and Belgium o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Brazil o Evangelical Lutheran Church of England o Gutnius Lutheran Church o Independent Evangelical-Lutheran Church o Japan Lutheran Church o Lanka Lutheran Church o Lutheran Church—Canada o Lutheran Church—Hong Kong Synod o Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (United States) o Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member) • German Evangelical Church in Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia (no longer in existence) • Laestadian Lutheran Church • Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America • Lutheran Church of China (no longer in existence) • Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (United States) • Lutheran Evangelical Protestant Church (United States) • Lutheran Ministerium and Synod - USA • Lutheran World Federation o Andhra Evangelical Lutheran Church o Arcot Lutheran Church o Batak Christian Protestant Church o Church of Denmark o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland o Church of Iceland o Church of Norway o Church of Sweden o Church of the Faroe Islands o Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church o Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia o Evangelical Lutheran Church in America o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Papua New Guinea o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Southern Africa o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland o Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Tanzania o Evangelical Lutheran Church in Madhya Pradesh o Evangelical Lutheran Church in the Himalayan States o Evangelical Lutheran Free Church of Norway (associate member) o Gossner Evangelical Lutheran Church in Chotanagpur and Assam o Indian Evangelical Lutheran Church o Jeypore Evangelical Lutheran Church o Lutheran Church of Australia (associate member) o Malagasy Lutheran Church o Northern Evangelical Lutheran Church o Simalungun Protestant Christian Church o South Andhra Lutheran Church o Tamil Evangelical Lutheran • Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia • Anglican Church in Central America • Anglican Church of Australia • Anglican Church of Burundi • Anglican Church of Canada • Anglican Church of Kenya • Anglican Church of Korea • Anglican Church of Mexico • Anglican Church of Papua New Guinea • Anglican Church of Southern Africa • Anglican Church of Tanzania • Anglican Church of the Southern Cone of America • Anglican Episcopal Church of Brazil • Church in the Province of the West Indies • Church in Wales • Church of England • Church of Ireland • Church of Nigeria • Church of Uganda • Church of the Province of Central Africa • Church of the Province of Melanesia • Church of the Province of Myanmar • Church of the Province of Rwanda • Church of the Province of South East Asia • Church of the Province of the Indian Ocean • Church of the Province of West Africa • Episcopal Church (in the United States and elsewhere) • Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East • Episcopal Church in the Philippines • Episcopal Church of Cuba • Episcopal Church of the Sudan • Hong Kong Sheng Kung Hui • Lusitanian Catholic Apostolic Evangelical Church (in Portugal) • Nippon Sei Ko Kai (Japan) • Province de L'Eglise Anglicane Du Congo • Scottish Episcopal Church • Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church • Church of Bangladesh • Church of North India • Church of South India • Church of Pakistan • African Orthodox Church • Anglican Catholic Church • Anglican Church in America • Anglican Church in North America • Anglican Church of India • Anglican Episcopal Church (USA) • Anglican Mission in the Americas • Anglican Orthodox Church • Anglican Province of America • Anglican Province of Christ the King • Christian Episcopal Church • Church of England (Continuing) • Church of England in South Africa • Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches • Diocese of the Great Lakes • Diocese of the Holy Cross • Episcopal Missionary Church • Evangelical Connexion of the Free Church of England • Free Church of England • Free Protestant Episcopal Church • Holy Catholic Church--Western Rite • Independent Anglican Church Canada Synod • Orthodox Anglican Church • Reformed Episcopal Church • Southern Episcopal Church • United Episcopal Church • 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(June 2011) See also: List of Christian denominations#Bible Student groups [edit] Sabbath-Keeping Churches, Adventist • Adventist Church of Promise • Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church • General Conference of the Church of God (Seventh-Day) • Seventh-day Adventist Church • Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement [edit] Sabbath-Keeping Churches, Non-Adventist • Branch Davidians • Church of God International (USA) • Church of the Great God • Intercontinental Church of God • Living Church of God • Philadelphia Church of God Seventh-Day Baptists Seventh-Day Evangelist Church • Seventh Day Christians - Norway (Syvende dags Kristne) • True Jesus Church • United Church of God • United Seventh-Day Brethren [edit] Sunday Adventists • Advent Christian Church • Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith) • Church of the Blessed Hope (aka Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith) [edit] Sacred Name Groups • Assemblies of Yahweh • House of Yahweh • New Life Fellowship • Jehovah's Witnesses • Dawn Bible Students Association • Assembly of Yahweh • Friends of Man • Christian Millennial Fellowship • Pastoral Bible Institute [edit] British-Israelism Main article: British Israelism • British-Israel-World Federation • Christian Identity and other white separatist/supremacist groups o Church of Jesus Christ-Christian (Aryan Nations) o Kingdom Identity Ministries o LaPorte Church of Christ • The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord • Revival Centres International • The Revival Fellowship • Armstrongism [edit] Miscellaneous/Other • Associated Gospel Churches of Canada (AGC) • Believers' Church in India • Family International a.k.a. "The Family International", "Family of Love", "The Family" • Church of Christ, Instrumental (Kelleyites) • Christian Conventions (a.k.a. Two by Twos, The Truth, The Way, etc.) • Christian & Missionary Alliance • Cooneyites (not to be confused with Christian Conventions, above) • Eternal Grace • Evangelical Church of West Africa • Evangelical Covenant Church of America ("Swedish Evangelical Mission Covenant") • Evangelical Free Church of Canada • Fellowship of Fundamental Bible Churches • Grace Movement Churches • Great Commission Association • Shakers • Indian Shakers • Jesus Movement • Methernitha • Metropolitan Community Churches • Native American Church • New Frontiers (formerly New Frontiers International) • Schwenkfelder Church • Strigolniki • Universal Life • Yehowists (aka Yehowists-Ilyinites, Russian Jehovists • The Children of God Reformed Church [edit] Christian Revival Church *Christian Revival Church India • Christian Revival Church Nagaland • Christian Revival Church Arunachal Pradesh • Christian Revival Church Meghalaya • Christian Revival Church Assam • Christian Revival Church Manipur • Christian Revival Church Sikkim • Christian Revival Church West Bengal • Christian Revival Church Tamil Nadu • Christian Revival Church Maharastra • Christian Revival Church Uttra Pradesh • Christian Revival Church Bihar • Christian Revival Church Myanmar • Christian Revival Church Nepal [edit] Latter Day Saints Main articles: Latter Day Saint movement and Mormonism See also: List of sects in the Latter Day Saint movement Most Latter Day Saint denominations are derived from the Church of Christ, established by Joseph Smith in 1830. The majority of "Prairie Saint" denominations were established after the death of Smith by the remnants of the Saints who did not go west with Brigham Young. The Rocky Mountain denominations are various sects who broke from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after its abandonment of polygamy in 1890. Other denominations are defined by either a belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet, or acceptance of the Book of Mormon as scripture. Mormonism is generally considered restorationist, believing that Smith, by inspiration and revelation, restored the original Church of Christ to the earth. Some Latter Day Saint denominations are regarded by other Christians as being nontrinitarian, but generally do not accept that label themselves, in contrast to the groups labeled "nontrinitarian" below. The churches within the Latter Day Saint movement are not recognized as an orthodox Christian denomination, and are usually rejected as Christian altogether by most Protestants. Mormons, however, strongly oppose this rejection. [edit] Original denomination • The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints [edit] "Prairie Saint" denominations • Church of Christ (Temple Lot) (Hedrickites) • Church of Christ with the Elijah Message • Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite) • Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite) • Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite) • Community of Christ, formerly called Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS) (largest "Prairie Saint" denomination) • Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints • Independent RLDS / Restoration Branches • Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints • Restored Church of Jesus Christ (Eugene O. Walton) [edit] Rocky Mountains denominations • Apostolic United Brethren • The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) – by far the largest Latter Day Saint denomination • Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) • Latter Day Church of Christ (Kingston Clan) • The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days [edit] Other denominations • Aaronic Order • Restoration Church of Jesus Christ [edit] Nontrinitarian groups Main article: Nontrinitarianism Various denominations whose self-understanding denies trinitarian theology held by other Christians. [edit] Oneness Pentecostalism Main article: Oneness Pentecostalism • Affirming Pentecostal Church International • Apostolic Assemblies of Christ • Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus • Apostolic Brethren • Apostolic Church of Pentecost • Apostolic Gospel Church of Jesus Christ • Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God • Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ • Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ • Churches of Jesus Christ International • Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith • Gay Apostolic Pentecostals • Pentecostal Assemblies of the World • United Pentecostal Church International [edit] Unitarianism and Universalism Main articles: Unitarianism and Christian Universalism See also: Unitarian Universalism • American Unitarian Conference, North America • Christian Universalist Association, US • International Council of Unitarians and Universalists o Australian and New Zealand Unitarian Universalist Association o Canadian Unitarian Council o Deutsche Unitarier Religionsgemeinschaft, Germany o European Unitarian Universalists o General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches, United Kingdom & Ireland o Unitarian Universalist Association, US o Unitarian Universalist Society of Spain o Unitarisk Kirkesamfund, Denmark • Socinianism (extinct as a modern and distinct group) o Polish Brethren (extinct as a modern and distinct group) [edit] Bible Student groups Main article: Bible Student movement • Christian Millennial Fellowship • Dawn Bible Students Association • Friends of Man • Jehovah's Witnesses • Laymen's Home Missionary Movement • Pastoral Bible Institute [edit] Swedenborgianism Main article: Swedenborgianism • General Church of the New Jerusalem • Swedenborgian Church of North America [edit] Other non-Trinitarians • Arianism • Christadelphians • Church of the Blessed Hope • Church of Christ, Scientist • Doukhobors ("Spirit-Wrestlers") • Arian Catholic Church • Iglesia ni Cristo • Makuya • Molokans • Members Church of God International • Most Holy Church of God in Christ Jesus • Subbotniks • Two by Twos ("Christian Conventions") • Unification Church • Universal Alliance • The Way International [edit] New Thought Main article: New Thought See also: History of New Thought The relation of New Thought to Christianity is sometimes murky; some of its adherents see themselves as practicing a true or correct form of Christianity, or as doing what Jesus did, while others, in particular, Religious Science says "yes and no" to the question of whether it considers itself Christian leaving it to the individual to define themselves.[8] • Church of Divine Science[9] • Religious Science[10] • Unity Church[11] [edit] Messianic Judaism / Jewish Christians Main article: Messianic Judaism See also: Messianic Movement and Messianic Jewish theology • Chosen People Ministries • Coalition of Torah Observant Messianic Congregations • British Messianic Jewish Alliance • Fellowship of Messianic Congregations (FMC) • International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues • International Federations of Messianic Jews (IFMJ) • International Messianic Jewish Alliance (IMJA) • Jews for Jesus • Messianic Bureau International (MBI) • Messianic Israel Alliance (MIA) • Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA) • Messianic Jewish Alliance of Australia • Messianic Hebrews International • The Association of Messianic Congregations (AMC) • The British Messianic Jewish Alliance • The International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues (IAMCS) • The Jerusalem Council • The United Alliance of Congregations Pursuing a Messianic Torah • Tikkun Ministries International • Union of Conservative Messianic Synagogues (UCMJS) • Union of Nazarene Jewish Synagogues • Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) • Union of Nazarene Yisraelite Congregations • United Messianic Jewish Alliance (UMJA) [edit] Esoteric Christianity Main articles: Esoteric Christianity and Western Mystery Tradition • Anthroposophical Society of Rudolf Steiner • Archeosophical Society of Tommaso Palamidessi • Lectorium Rosicrucianum of Jan van Rijckenborgh/Catharose de Petri • Martinism of Louis Claude de Saint-Martin et al. • Societas Rosicruciana by Masons • The Rosicrucian Fellowship of Max Heindel [edit] Syncretistic religions incorporating elements of Christianity The relation of these movements to other Christian ideas can be remote. They are listed here because they include some elements of Christian practice or beliefs, within religious contexts which may be only loosely characterized as Christian. • Candomblé • Vodou • Pilgrims of Arès • Rastafari movement • Santería • Santo Daime • Umbanda

66 posted on 11/07/2011 2:48:37 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: hellbender
I think our difference is that your regard the church as a human institution headquartered in Rome

No. I believe the words of Scripture -

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15

67 posted on 11/07/2011 2:57:07 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive

Nah ... “this rock” refers to the truth Peter had just spoken. Of course, you’d have to read that verse in context to understand that ...

What was Jesus so excited about in the verse immediately preceding the one you referenced? Jesus was excited that Peter recognized Him as “the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus was excited about this truth about Himself being professed. He wasn’t particularly excited about identifying someone ELSE as the rock. Peter just acknowledged THE ROCK, and Jesus affirmed that acknowledgement.

OK, you be part of a church with Peter as the rock. I’ll claim membership in the church that has Jesus as the rock.


68 posted on 11/07/2011 2:58:03 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: FatherofFive; hellbender

Come on, hellbender. You’ve been here long enough to know that most Roman Catholic FReepers (allegedly, seemingly) thrive on denouncing Christ-followers who aren’t members of their particular denomination.

You’re trying to be reasonable, and biblical, and historical, and contextual. But they (allegedly, seemingly) thrive on baiting, on ridiculing, on demeaning, on damning those who don’t eat literal tendons and dermis, and who don’t pray to dead people, and who don’t affirm their other various unbiblical doctrines.

I’ve met perhaps one gracious Roman Catholic ever on FR. The rest will reveal their hatred for Christ followers when their backs are against the wall.

“Allegedly” and all that ...


69 posted on 11/07/2011 3:04:40 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: FatherofFive; hellbender

Oh, you want to play that little game of copy-paste? You want to include a number of Mormon cults among your list? You want to include Jehova’s Witnesses among your list?

I do see a number of Catholic churches on that list as well.

Kettle. Pot.

Let me ask you directly: Is Christ sufficient to save? Or is the fullness of salvation only found within the Roman Catholic Church?


70 posted on 11/07/2011 3:06:17 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: FatherofFive

I notice you also include vodou and santeria in your list of Protestant denominations.

Are you this careless (allegedly, seemingly) in all your religious thinking?


71 posted on 11/07/2011 3:08:27 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: Theo
I’ll claim membership in the church that has Jesus as the rock.

Sure, but that is not what Scripture says.

"You are Rock, and on this rock I will build my church." You read this to mean You are Rock, and on ME I will build my church. Make up whatever you want. It is not the truth, it is not what Scripture says.

You can believe whatever you want to believe. But there is only one path to Christ.

72 posted on 11/07/2011 3:10:12 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: Theo
I spent about 10 seconds researching the various denominations.

The point is that Christ wanted us to be one. If there is more than one, we are not following Christ.

73 posted on 11/07/2011 3:25:01 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: Theo
Is Christ sufficient to save?

Yes, in the Church he established.

74 posted on 11/07/2011 3:27:03 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: Theo
“Allegedly” and all that ... Yeah, right.

Answer a few questions

1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

2. Other than the specific command to John to write the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

4. Where did the table of contents of the Bible come from?

5. What do you think happened to all the “stuff” in John 21:25? “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

75 posted on 11/07/2011 3:32:05 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: Campion

You are late to the party. I already made nice.

Go complain somewhere else.


76 posted on 11/07/2011 5:30:42 PM PST by TSgt (whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive...it is the Right of the People to abolish it.)
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To: FatherofFive

You question the authority of Scripture to your peril.


77 posted on 11/07/2011 6:25:18 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: FatherofFive

“You read this to mean You are Rock, and on ME I will build my church.”

No, I neither said nor implied that. Try reading again what I wrote, very slowly.

Maybe reference the verse JUST BEFORE the one you quoted. That gives ... context.


78 posted on 11/07/2011 6:28:46 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: FatherofFive

So, according to you, Christ alone is insufficient.


79 posted on 11/07/2011 6:42:17 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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To: FatherofFive

Those of us who have been adopted into His family are one. You seem to be the one promoting division.


80 posted on 11/07/2011 6:46:11 PM PST by Theo (May Rome decrease and Christ increase.)
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