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To: Cronos
The fact is that the RCC sets up a special priesthood, which the Protestants reject.

Protestants reject the idea you have to go to a Priest to get forgiveness or intercede on your behalf.

The individual can go directly to God without going through a priest.

They are not the same views, so stop trying to argue that they are.

232 posted on 11/02/2011 11:44:28 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: fortheDeclaration
The fact is that the RCC sets up a special priesthood, which the Protestants reject.

That's false as Anglicans and Lutherans have priests

Lutherans have their pastors and the Sacrament of Penance as well

So your statement is wrong -- "Protestants" do not reject this, only some non-Catholic groups.

In fact the ministerial priesthood is not only held by 75% of the Christian world today (Catholics, Orthodox, Orientals, Lutherans, Anglicans etc) but also was held by nearly all Christians prior to the 1500s.

254 posted on 11/02/2011 1:54:49 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: fortheDeclaration
In fact the Lutherans believe in the sacrament of Penance -->

I have been recently reading sermons from Holy Trinity LCMS church and these are very, very nice. I picked this up first on Holy Absolution. Lutheran on Absolution And when [Jesus] had said this, he breathed on [the disciples] and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” John 20:23

The church has given to her ordained ministers through the gift of the Holy Spirit the power and authority to exercise the apostolic ministry to bind and loose sin.1 Traditionally Luther’s Small Catechism included a section on the Office of the Keys, although not written by Luther himself.2 I note with regret that current editions of the Small Catechism from Augsburg Fortress have omitted any discussion about the Office of the Keys.

The third question on the Office of the Keys included in most every edition of the Small Catechism is: “What do you believe according to these words [John 20:22-23]? I believe that when the called ministers of Christ deal with us by His divine command, in particular when they exclude openly unrepentant sinners from the Christian congregation and absolve those who repent of their sins and want to do better, this is just as valid and certain, even in heaven, as if Christ our dear Lord dealt with us Himself” (my emphasis).3 When an ordained servant of Christ admonishes an unrepentant sinner, doesn’t speak God’s word of forgiveness, and believes excommunication is the only remedy left, Lutherans have traditionally believed that that admonition is a direct word from Christ himself. The pastor acts in the stead and command of Jesus Christ when exercising the ministry of the keys. The pastor’s word at that point is Christ’s word.

Our liturgical tradition has witnessed to the belief that the pastor speaks in the place of and with the full authority of the eternal Son of the Father. Thus we have the absolution spoken by the pastor in the rite of Confession and Forgiveness, “Cling to this promise: the word of forgiveness I speak to you comes from God. [Name], in obedience to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins.”4 And going back earlier within the tradition, the Service Book and Hymnal offers these binding words from the rite for Public Confession in preparation for receiving the Holy Sacrament:

On the other hand, by the same authority, I declare unto the impenitent and unbelieving, that so long as they continue in their impenitence, God hath not forgiven their sins, and will assuredly visit their iniquities upon them, if they turn not from their evil ways, and come to true repentance and faith in Christ, ere the day of grace be ended.5

From this theological and liturgical tradition within the Lutheran church, a pastor whose bound conscience belief in the Word of God that homosexual behavior is sin for the sake of pastoral care exercises the keys and binds that sin until repented. In doing so, that pastor speaks God’s own binding word upon such a person. His sin is not forgiven, neither by the pastor on earth nor by God in heaven. The Office of the Keys is exercised in this way so that a person might be convicted by the law and saved by the gospel. This is the ministry of the gospel and a fulfillment of the pastoral calling to be ministers of the Word. I must be painfully clear this concerns every unrepentant sinner and every unrepented sin. I only address homosexual behavior, because it is the issue upon which the ELCA now struggles and according to the bound conscience doctrine the keys are a valid and correct response to this sin and must be respected.

255 posted on 11/02/2011 1:55:50 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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To: fortheDeclaration
so as you can see, your statement about what all Protestants believe is false as is so stop trying to argue that they are. note again, you said The individual priesthood of the believer (which Luther stressed) is rejected -- that is false

Church belief is that The chosen people was constituted by God as "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."6 But within the people of Israel, God chose one of the twelve tribes, that of Levi, and set it apart for liturgical service; God himself is its inheritance.7 A special rite consecrated the beginnings of the priesthood of the Old Covenant. The priests are "appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins." (Heb 5:1; cf. Ex 29:1-30; Lev 8.)

The Church teaches that he faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation the faithful are "consecrated to be . . . a holy priesthood." and The ministerial or hierarchical priesthood of bishops and priests, and the common priesthood of all the faithful participate, "each in its own proper way, in the one priesthood of Christ." -- there is no rejection of the individual priesthood of the believer, rather it is celebrated as part of the inherent, deep-rooted beliefs.

257 posted on 11/02/2011 1:58:10 PM PDT by Cronos (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2787101/posts?page=58#58)
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