Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
It is true that the question in Mt 16 was put to all the apostles and St. Peter was the one answering. It is also true that to call St. Peter a rock means to make him in a special relationship with The Rock, Christ.
I am simply making the point that whatever that verse says about the Catholic papacy and the Catholic episcopacy, it surely teaches that the Church is there to break down the Gates of Hell, that is, is commissioned by Christ to lead people to salvation.
Thank you. I’ll get to your posts tomorrow.
Saved in the end after suffering a loss? I thought you all believed they were saved who were in purgatory.
Let me try again.
A pastor #1 is lazy and only teaches “milk”. He has 100 in his church. Because they are weak Christians 50 of them fall away from the faith. In other words they were “burned up” by the fires of temptation. He gets credit for 50.
Pastor #2 has 100 in his church but he works, studies and teaches “meat”. Because they are much more based in scripture they don’t get tempted away by the “fire” of temptation. He gets credit for all 100 and gets more reward in heaven then pastor 1.
But no anathemas for the Muslims? Well!! I’m just miffed I tell ya. Herumph!!
That is not the Roman Catholic Church. It is the body of Christ, the church. All who proclaim Jesus as their savior are part of the “body of Christ” the church just as they were during the time of the Apostles.
I do have to admit, it's a "curse" I wear proudly. For Rome to hate me means I'm doing something right, like telling THE TRUTH. It's a badge of honor to be despised by workers of iniquity.
So why do Catholic continually flaunt their good works as if Protestants never do any of those same things? The presumption always seems to be that just because Christians (not necessarily Protestants) believe that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, that that means that we are exempt from doing the works that God ordained that we should walk in.
So far every Catholic who appeals to those works listed does so with the implication that only Catholics do all of that and that those they are addressing don’t.
This may have escaped your attention, but there are those who do good works like that who don’t trumpet it from the street corner. The same Jesus who said that we should feed the hungry and clothe the poor, also said not to do our works of righteousness to be seen and lauded by men.
The assumption and accusation that just because we don’t talk about the works we do or that we don’t believe that they are required for salvation, means we don’t do them is disingenuous.
It’s simply because they believe that we are anathema. Seriously. We CANNOT be saved, who deny the sacraments, the baptism of the RCC, the blah, blah of Catholicism. What works would they recognize of us? NONE. Because we have none, in their eyes. That’s the dirty little secret of the bigotry and hate for non-Catholics. Well, not so secret. They make that clear daily.
I won’t reply to all the many people you pinged to your post.
When I mentioned the “good works” ( as you referred to them...I never called them “good works”), I had no intention of “flaunting”.
I made no presumptions that other Christians were “exempt from doing good works”.
I never once thought that “only Catholics do all of that and that those they are addressing don’t”. I know better.
I know there are “those who do good works and don’t trumpet it from the street corner.”
You appear to assume and perhaps even accuse me of being assumptive and accusative...and even “disingenuous”.
You may have missed the fact that I was responding to boatbum’s accounting of her experiences with Catholics. And I was merely expressing my experiemce with Catholics, as a Catholic, as a counterbalance.
There’s no need for seeing any more into what I wrote than what it was that I intended.
If I didn’t make my intention clear, I’ m trying to do so now.
My intent was to relate experiential and anecdotal experiences...the same criteria used by boatbums, as I mentioned in my post to her.
So now that this whole thing has been blown out of proportion to its significance, I’m happy, for my part, to close it.
And you have. Thank you for clearing that up.
And thank you.
Because they want to remind God why He has to save them.. they have wages due
Here are the relevant parts of the Catechism in full and with punctuation:
I. The Particular Judgment
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.591
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593-or immediate and everlasting damnation.594
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.595
590 Cf. ⇒ 2 Tim 1:9-10.
591 Cf. ⇒ Lk 16:22; ⇒ 23:43; ⇒ Mt 16:26; ⇒ 2 Cor 5:8; ⇒ Phil 1:23; ⇒ Heb 9:27; ⇒ 12:23.
592 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 857-858; Council of Florence
(1439): DS 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820.
593 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne
super his (1334): DS 990.
594 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1002.
595 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.
[…]
III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609
604 Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.
605 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 3:15; ⇒ 1 Pet 1:7.
606 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. ⇒ Mt 12:31.
607 ⇒ 2 Macc 12:46.
608 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856.
609 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. ⇒ Job 1:5.
III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory
i do not see a purgatory there with souls who have nothing to be purified by fire from.
Neither do I; all go through particular judgment (“the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is”, 1 Cor 3:13), but not all have anything burnable in them so the purifying fire for them does not occur (“If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.”, v14). The fire as a test is there, but not the purifying fire.
every believer himself is burnt in the cleansing fire, but some go through unscathed, and thus this is not purgatory for them, but it is only those who need to take time in purgatory to burn off the "stubble" that experience purgatory
Yes, except if there is nothing to cleanse it is hardly “cleansing”.
which purgation process may not take place at the Second Coming (below), but merely reveals it?
This only makes sense to me if your question were to end “but is merely revealed at the time of the Second coming”. The general understanding of the Church is that it is the Particular Judgment where one’s place of eternal dwelling is sealed. The Last Judgment is understood as a point when the world as we know it ends completely, and those saved receive their glorified bodies. Indeed, since it is our works in life that determine our destiny, there is no point in delaying the particular judgment and the necessary purgation till the End of Time. The passage in 1 Cor 3 taken in isolation could indeed be read as if the purgation be occurring at the Last judgment, but that would not be consistent with the rest of the Scripture on the last things, and does not follow from the text with necessity.
it was on earth that man was tested
Of course. Leaving aside the relationship of faith and works, which we had the pleasure of discussing before, let me merely comment that the multiple tests of the lifetime have that anagogical quality to them as they build us up (here is that building metaphor again). The Particular Judgment is not done with the eye on prompting better works, but rather judging the works already completed.
the day of Christ, the judgment seat of Christ, at the Second Coming of Christ, is purgatory in “application,” declaring the result of the actual purgation of dross of sins which commences at death?
It is making manifest the purgation that had already occurred, like the text in 1 Cor 3 actually says.
if there is a type of purgatory, then it can only be speculative, and 1Cor 3 in particular cannot be dogmatically defined as referring to it.
This is not how the Catholic Church operates. The dogmas of the Church come from the bosom of the Church in her historical clarification of the deposit of faith received by the Apostles. The passage in 1 Cor 3 is a reflection of the belief of the Church in the cleansing after death, and the dogma of the Purgatory is another reflection. We don’t derive dogmas from the scripture but rather both the scripture and the dogmatic formalisms derive from the original deposit of faith and are in harmony.
It is clear from verses 13 and 14: id=f there is no stubble, there is nothing to burn off. I just posted the relevant catechisms, too.
being saved is despite the loss of fruit which should have remained
A fruit, or a crown. Yes.
I don't think I did any "wrestling". In fact you yourself seem to agree that one way or another the 1 Cor 3 describes a cleansing fire that occurs after death and precedes entry into Heaven.
Nope..not true and I've been following this thread....the holiness required is covered under the finished work of Christ and Christ alone....or he wasn't holy "enough" to satsify Gods requirements. There is no middle ground. Either the sacrifice of Christ was "complete" and we are complete in Him or not.... Jesus said......"it is finished"....and it was...is...and forevermore will be who covers all our sins....not in part...but the whole.
So why do Catholic continually flaunt their good works as if Protestants never do any of those same things?
Because they want to remind God why He has to save them.. they have wages due.
Rotflol...good one!
And how about regular folks, don’t you think the same process should also apply to them: that some of their work is good and some not so good?
True; but Christians do sin and experience guilt. They even fall off the faith completely, as you yourself indicated in you preceding post.
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