What the Church means by Purgatory

Fallible Blogma ^ | October 21, 2011

[Judith Anne]

>>>>>Besides, if you’ve read theses threads with any frequency, you can easily see those who are sincere and those who only take pot shots and run.

Yes. easily.

[D-fendr]

I know, they are “poorly catechized, ignorant

When they claim the Church teaches what it does not, yes, by definition. If you want to know what we teach, it's easy to find out.

What the Church teaches is not hidden. Long ago, at the least since Justin and Irenaeus, Christians fought and defeated the gnostics (and Docetists and Ebionites, etc. etc..); this part of the history of the Church is over 1800 years old.

If you wish to know what the Church believes it is here plainly stated. This is the Credo of the Church, the creed of the Christian faith.

[boatbums]

Why don’t you submit the source and its link to the comibook publisher to the Religion Mod. amd ask him/her thequestion? Nobody is afraid of that stuff, it’s hate-mongering according to the RM, and is not allowed on FR. Surely that’s not a mystery to you.

Why don't you stop hounding me after every post and expecting me to do your bidding? Getting the Moderator involved too! Go back and look at your very own post. You admitted that the "bad" source was NOT the source but only popped up later AND IT WASN'T EVEN MY POST. If you have solid proof that someone else used a banned source go complain to the Moderator, don't come to me expecting me to do your homework. Okay?

[D-fendr]

God decides what He actually says.

l'm beginning to think you actually don't know it is really you that is talking, not God.

Oh, well.

[Judith Anne]

It appears you are disabowing the source. Why?

[Judith Anne]

Heh. Perceptive.

[D-fendr]

That’s what I’m TELLING you...there ARE NO FACTS.

No facts on the two texts and numbering systems of the decalogue? Sorry, that's a dodge and factually incorrect. Honest discussion requires admitting factual errors.

[boatbums]

I believe you have more than adequately proved your point. I think saying their church had already “ruled” on the relevancy of I Cor. 3 for Purgatory proved that, no matter what evidence you brought to the contrary, their mind was already made up.

[D-fendr]

They are compilations of 2000 years of fallible opinions.

By your logic, you prefer to whittle that down to a couple of hundred years, or 40 years or however many months you've had your current fallilble opinions.

Maybe if you studied the history of the Church, you might gain some appreciation for what you believe and how it came to be from Christ to today.

[Cronos]

hits a Cardinal conspiracy!!

[Cronos]

hits a Cardinal conspiracy!!

[dfwgator]

Ranger fans are in Hell right now.

[boatbums]

Uh-oh...somebody’s gonna be in trouble for linking to a “known” hate site supposedly “banned” from Free Republic! (and it isn’t you);o)

[Judith Anne]

This was wonderful, but game 6, I’m goig to watch it again at least once. What a series!!

[boatbums]

Thanks for that helpful link. Are you sure it is banned on Free Republic or is it only because y’all would like for it to be banned?

[Judith Anne]

I’m not the mod.

[boatbums]

Disabowing? How am I doing that when we're talking about someone else's post. You sure seems riled up about nothing. Did you forget the subject was about the Ten Commandments and how the RC version is not the same as some Protestant's? Now it's getting all twisted up into a conspiracy posted multiple times and the ORIGINAL poster already said they DID NOT USE that site but a book in their possession. And like another poster said, that information can be seen by a simple search on the net. Here, I'll do one for you:

"Roman Catholic Ten Commandments" brought up 10,800,000 hits! The first link is http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/romancatholic-tencommandments.html and the first few paragraphs are interesting:

The table below shows the Ten Commandments as personally spoken and written by God using the King James translation and the Ten Commandments as changed by the Roman Catholic Church. They believe that their authority stands above the Word of God and that they can change God's times and laws and God will prescribe to their changes. You will note that they deleted the second Commandment and changed God's Sabbath to Sunday and split the tenth Commandment into two to get back to Ten Commandments. As a result the Roman Catholic version of the Ten Commandments is always one ahead of the King James in the Decalogue until the tenth Commandment when they break it into two and make it the ninth and tenth Commandments.

The following from the Catholic Encyclopaedia Vol. 4, p. 153 also confirms the deletion of the second Commandment and the change of the fourth. “The church, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath of the seventh day of the week to the first made the third commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day.”

This truth can also be found from the following URL which you will need to copy and paste into the address bar as links promote search engine ranking and I cannot promote what is not Biblical truth. The Catholic version is the column on the right hand side titled “A Traditional Catechetical Formula.” The URL is http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

In 1562 the Archbishop declared that tradition now stood above scripture. “The authority of the Church is illustrated most clearly by the scriptures, for on one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, and offers them to us to be read, and on the other hand, the legal precepts in the scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority. The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord's day. These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ's teaching (for He says that He has come to fulfill the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the Church.” — Gaspare de Posso Archbishop of Reggio, Council of Trent.

[Judith Anne]

Thanks for the link. I encourage every Catholic poster to read it, to learn what your adversaries profess to be truth, and decide for yourselves if it is or isn’t a hate site..

[Al Hitan]

The table below shows the Ten Commandments as personally spoken and written by God using the King James translation and the Ten Commandments as changed by the Roman Catholic Church.

You do realize that how the Ten Commandents are enumerated is strictly by tradition as sacred Scripture itself does not provide the numbering? To argue about the numbering and division is silly and just makes it look like some people are desperate to grab any stick to beat on the Catholics. Maybe this will help you to understand the Decalogue

Exodus 20:1-17 (NRSV)	Jewish	Orth.	Prot.	Luth.	Cath.	Deuteronomy 5:6-21 (NRSV)
1 Then God spoke all these words: 2 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;	1	1	0	1	1	6 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 7 you shall have no other gods before me. 8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, 10 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
3 you shall have no other gods before me.	2		1
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.		2	2
7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.	3	3	3	2	2	11 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
8 Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work. 10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work--you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.	4	4	4	3	3	12 Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work. 14 But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work--you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. 15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.
12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.	5	5	5	4	4	16 Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
13 You shall not murder.	6	6	6	5	5	17 You shall not murder.
14 You shall not commit adultery.	7	7	7	6	6	18 Neither shall you commit adultery.
15 You shall not steal.	8	8	8	7	7	19 Neither shall you steal.
16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.	9	9	9	8	8	20 Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.
17a You shall not covet your neighbor's house; 17b you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.	10	10	10	9 & 10	9 & 10	21a Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife. 21b Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
Exodus 20	Jewish	Orth.	Prot.	Luth.	Cath.	Deuteronomy 5

NOTES:

• The main discrepancies occur at the BEGINNING of the texts, in the first and/or second commandments:
  • Most contemporary Jews consider Exod 20:1-2 to be the first commandment, enjoining people to recognize the LORD as their God, while the second commandment forbids both polytheistic beliefs and practices (20:3-6 together).
  • Many Protestants consider Exod 20:1-2 (and Deut 5:6) to be a preface to the Decalogue, so that the first commandment opposes polytheism (no other gods; Exod 20:3), while the second commandment opposes idolatry (worshiping idols; 20:4-6).
  • Catholics and Lutherans consider all of Exod 20:1-6 and Deut 5:6-10 to be a single commandment, both enjoining monotheism and forbidding polytheism
• The other main discrepancies occur at the END of the texts, in the ninth and/or tenth commandments:
  • Jews and most Protestants consider the last commandment to be the injuction against coveting anything;
  • Lutherans follow Martin Luther's division of Exodus 20:17, which first prohibits coveting someone's property (#9), then the spouse (#10).
  • Catholics follow St. Augustine's division of Deuteronomy 5:21, which first mentions the spouse (#9), and then the property (#10).
• For further comparative information, see the article on the "Ten Commandments" at wikipedia.org
• For explanations of the Decalogue from the perspective of various groups of Jews and Christians, see the following links:
  • Jewish: Aseret ha-Dibrot: The "Ten Commandments"; from Judaism 101 online
  • Orthodox:"Our Faith: The Ten Commandments"; from the Greek Orthodox Church in America
  • Reform Protestant: from "The Ten Commandments Project" or the Westminster Shorter Catechism
  • Episcopal: from the Episcopal Catechism or the Book of Common Prayer; from Anglicansonline.org
  • Lutheran: Teachings on the Ten Commandments from Martin Luther's Small Catechism
  • Catholic: Part Three ("Life in Christ"), Section Two ("The Ten Commandments") of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

[Al Hitan]

For those too lazy to search out for themselves the full set of the Ten Commandments as officially used by the Church:

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

Iam the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

THE SECOND COMMANDMENT

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

THE THIRD COMMANDMENT

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.

THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not kill.

THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not commit adultery.

THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not steal.

THE EIGHTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

THE NINTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's

THE TENTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not covet ... anything that is your neighbor's....

Note that the Catechism provides for each commandment references from both Exodus and Deuteronomy. Also provided are corresponding NT references to each commandment. If you follow the links, the Catechism provides commentary on each commandment.