Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
Because the text is very clear and my interpretation does not contradict any other scripture. You simply want to discuss something else because you cannot refute the fact that 1 Cor. 3 is a close prooftext of the Purgatory. Naturally, I am trying to get you to focus on the text we are discussing.
Your rendering is indeed contrary to other Scriptures, and 1Cor. 3 is contrary to Roman Catholic purgatory, which i have worked to get you to see.
>omitting contradicting ones<
I explained all the seeming contradictions to you. If you still have questions, please point out where there is a contradiction. It should not take a dissertation to point it out.
I have pointed out constantly, and summed it up in Purpose, Place, Period, Persons, Possessions, Method and Results, all of which you have vainly attempted to reject, as is manifest for all to see, and now its time to let others judge unless you want more reproof. You can even go get another Roman Catholic and i will debate this with him — if he agrees with you.
1. Both going to Heaven and both go through this process.
Yes, but for those already sanctified there is nothing for them to burn off. There is a test and they pass the test. They do nto go through purification.
So now you have a purgatory which contains souls which do not undergo the purification after death necessary so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God, which the CCC teaches is what purgatory is for. (CCC 1054, 1030)
2. The wood, hay and stubble are burned up and the person "loses" rewards BUT still goes to Heaven.
Those in purgatory lose the immediate union with Christ and the associated reward for life time sanctity BUT still go to Heaven.
Whereas Scripture tell us most clearly that the postmortem condition of the believers is with the Lord, and all will stand before the judgment seat of Christ for recompensing, and 1Cor. 3 is that day. As was shown.
3. What remains, gold, silver, precious gems, after the fire result in rewards IN ADDITION TO Heaven.
Yes. The Church teaches that there are levels of sanctity in Heaven too. These are the rewards among the saved.
Not an issue. Every star differeth in glory.
what do the gold, silver, precious gems represent?
They are rewards for righteousness, such as virginity, dedication to others, poverty, fortitude, works of mercy and justice, etc.
In Scripture, they represent believers, as was shown.
cannot be good works that get them into Heaven since it is by grace we are saved through faith without works
That is the foundational lie of Protestantism, and the reason Protestant propagandists would lie about this passage from their last bunker. We are saved through grace alone by both faith given us by the Father and works prepared for us by the Lord (Eph. 2:5-10)
The Reformers strongly preached on works as a necessary testimony to saving faith which appropriated justification, and rather than evangelicals, it is Roman Catholics which overall evidence the most lethargy, due to faith in the power of Rome, and confidence in purgatory. And the ones most manifestly lying about it are those with an interest in promoting the Roman Catholic bureaucracy with the system in which purgatory is a part.
But you have evidenced you will only believe what your devotion to Rome allows, and so its time to move on.
By the way, there may be YET ANOYHER VATICAN CONSPIRACY!!!!
The Cardinals won the 2011 WORLD SERIES!!!!
Get it? Cardinals — Vatican?
Coincidence? I think NOT!!!!
I have no intention of going into attack mode against someone who shares Catholic sentiment for pro-life and pro-family. Whatever you may believe in, I respect you for your stance on the sanctity of life from conception to death and the sanctity of marriage. I try not respond in like manner to your post — I will argue with a person who does not share my faith but shares my values and my concern for our babies and our families, but I will not delve down to a mud-slinger.
Now, is this a lie and propoganda, meant to slander the RCC? Or is this proven truth about the RCC, in hopes of hiding the unpleasant history?
The text and numbering system is not unique to Catholics and you could've found your error in wikipedia for goodness sakes.
You jumped on a debunked old smear (discredited on these threads a dozen times). You were alerted to it, warned, cajoled, directed and encouraged six times to just look it up and still you persisted in your ignorance.
Now, it's not your fault; no, it's just too hard to do research. When you didn't even try.
There's no credibility in this excuse, and none left for such an adversary in debate.
Yes, Judith Anne. It’s all linked...follow the links...they will eventually lead to Kevin Bacon. Congrats on the World Series! The Rangers just do what all Texas teams do: CHOKE.
Aren’t you the advisor to all who need to research! That and a Magic Eight Ball will give me more clues to the “facts” of RCC than anything the RCC puts out there for “truth”.
Based on the evidence in this case, it's just another newbie anti-Catholic poster; the source was immaterial as long as it smeared the Church, they'll buy into it. No need to look for themselves.
But, originally, who knows? You're right, comic books, Know Nothings... the usual 'reliable sources.'
I doubt the "heresies" of some "Protestant" denominations are any graver than some of what calls itself "The One, True, Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ" AKA Roman Catholicism. Which belief endangers salvation more:
1. Teaching that being baptized, going to confession, receiving communion, getting married in THE church, getting buried by same yet not receiving Jesus Christ as Savior, believing in and accepting the gift of eternal life through faith in Christ?
or
2. Teaching that through receiving and believing in Jesus Christ as Savior and accepting his sacrifice for our sins, receiving the promised indwelling Holy Spirit and therefore living holy lives that honor and glorify God and walking in grace exhibiting saving faith by doing the works of God he prepared for us to do?
I'd go with 2, mainly because I know what it's like living number 1. Personal faith in Christ was NOT a factor and many people I knew thought they could go to confession on Saturday, Mass on Sunday and then live like hell the rest of the week. There was no life-changing faith and no indwelling Spirit of God that worked within to compel good works. Once I DID accept Christ and receive him as my Savior, my life truly DID change and what used to feel forced became deeds out of gratitude and love for the grace and mercy of God. Go ahead and stick with your Religion that rejects what Scripture REALLY says in favor of what the leaders SAY it says. Place your faith in them. I'll trust God.
All I told you was do *some* research, do due diligence, find out the basic facts, etc. Which you didn't, persisted in error, and then claimed that it's not your fault, it's just too hard.
The “disinformation” you all are espousing comes from your own church! From people who have come out and told what they were taught. I know, they are “poorly catechized, ignorant, not really Catholics, demented,” etc. Anything but truthful. When a person leaves a cult, they have much information to share about that cult. I don’t think they read comic books. I think they are really into the Bible. And what God ACTUALLY says. Not what they were told He says.
That’s what I’m TELLING you...there ARE NO FACTS. Basic or otherwise. They are compilations of 2000 years of fallible opinions. Putting a pointed hat on an opinion does not make it an infallible fact.
And what God ACTUALLY says.
According to you. That's sola scriptura thinking in a nutshell: You decide what God actually says.
God decides what He actually says. And it’s in a Book. Called the Bible. Maybe you should put down you CCC for a while and catch up on God’s Word. It certainly couldn’t HURT, at this point.
Neither does hauling it off of a hate site:
http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/biblestudies/definitions/Def_WomanRidesBeast.htm
Why do you visit hate sites, Judith Anne? I told you the name of the book. I’m sitting here looking at it right now. And it’s NOT a “hate site”. I don’t have the luxury of poking around on hate sites. I’m too busy fending off the “gentle followers of the Beatitudes”, those whose “piety” is only surpassed by their hypocrisy. It’s a BOOK. With pages, and chapters, and a copyright date. Get a grip. Or a clue.
I guess one man's valid point is another man's invalid point. If someone uses unlawful (on Free Republic) sources, it may or may not be an easy thing to point out merely because things can and do get said in similar ways all the time. However, if one quotes verbatim from such sources and it's obvious, the Moderators do a good job of removing them. The post that brought this up was a discussion about the Ten Commandments and whether or not the Catholics have a different set from others. The poster who accused another of using the questionable source, even mentioned she had only seen the "bad" one as a secondary hit and could not determine if, in fact, that HAD been the source. With the internet savvy of most Freepers, few people get away with such things anymore. The issue with the Ten Commandments is easily seen as a topic discussed over the centuries and certainly did not originate with the HWMNBN. Do a search on Yahoo or Google.
Besides, if you've read theses threads with any frequency, you can easily see those who are sincere and those who only take pot shots and run.
Your comic book hero sells that book. The hate site I posted a link to has an article by that title. If you don’t like your own sources, pick better ones. This way, at least everyone reading this thread can get a look at the filth and decide for themselves.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.