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To: djrakowski
"And what sort of God would make a covenant that was MORE restrictive than the one it replaces? What sort of God would determine that all male children had the right to be members of the household of God through the ritual observance of circumcision, and then, while seemingly broadening the covenant to worldwide scope, suddenly reveal that there were some who would never, by His will, be permitted to taste the fruits of that covenant?"

You have made a few remarks about the "strangeness" of my perspective(s), but this beyond the pale. If you think that this ritual (circumcision) is what made a person a Jew, rather than the descendancy from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then you, my FRiend, need to re-read the text. The sign did not make them Jews or part of His household. Their birth was the thing which made them Jews. And, notice they had no say in that birth, either.

Later, when Paul notes that the true Israel (the universal family of God, the assembly belonging to the First Born) is not the physical family of Israel, but those who have been rescued. And it does not depend on the man who runs (acts) or the man who wills (chooses), but upon God who has mercy. And He will have mercy on some and harden some. Romans 9. Hmmm.

79 posted on 10/12/2011 10:52:19 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88
If you think that this ritual (circumcision) is what made a person a Jew, rather than the descendancy from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then you, my FRiend, need to re-read the text. The sign did not make them Jews or part of His household. Their birth was the thing which made them Jews. And, notice they had no say in that birth, either.

And if they willfully refused to follow the law regarding circumcision, what happened?

If ritual means nothing, as you claim, then why are these passages in sacred scripture?

Mark 16:16 - "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Acts 2:38 - "Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

1 Peter 3:21 - "This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. I is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Acts 22:16 - "Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’"

Colossians 2:12 - "You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."

Baptism washes away sins. Can one be saved without forgiveness of sins? Are you sure that rituals do nothing and are completely meaningless when the scriptures we both accept as inspired command us to perform them?

Yes, the gospel you profess is very strange and contra-scriptural indeed.

81 posted on 10/12/2011 11:05:02 AM PDT by djrakowski
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To: Dutchboy88
If you think that this ritual (circumcision) is what made a person a Jew, rather than the descendancy from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then you, my FRiend, need to re-read the text.

Really, this is your story and you are going to stick to it!

You are the one that needs to do some re-Reading. Abraham was required to circumcise ALL of his males slaves as well. Were they descendents of Abraham? We don't know if the slaves were monotheistic, how does forced conversion fit in to your scheme?

91 posted on 10/12/2011 1:40:36 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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