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To: Dutchboy88

You said, “No groups, just individuals.”

With all due respect, Jesus is the Son of God. He can do anything He pleases. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone on the earth may say otherwise. It is literally His world, along with being His universe.

Likewise, you said, “He can rescue even the most entrapped individuals.” Very true. Those people must then exercise their free will, avoiding sin, and doing the Lord’s will, so that, in addition we may know Him, love Him, and serve Him both in this world and in the next.

You can disagree with and dislike all kinds of things in this life. Here are a few: The Incarnation Happened. Then, He, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, formed a church, the Catholic Church, to save souls. That doesn’t mean you have to like it. Even so, I sincerely hope and pray that someday, you do, and that you join. It’s obvious that care about the Lord. I’d like it that you should be saved. I do not say this to make you think that I judge you. I do not. I am incapable of doing that. That role belongs to Our Lord. It does mean that when I say I will pray for your salvation, I truly mean it. No idle boast. In charity and truth, after I post this. God bless you, and all here.


158 posted on 10/15/2011 4:54:25 PM PDT by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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To: sayuncledave; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; Alex Murphy; ...
"Those people must then exercise their free will, avoiding sin, and doing the Lord’s will, so that, in addition we may know Him, love Him, and serve Him both in this world and in the next.

You can disagree with and dislike all kinds of things in this life. Here are a few: The Incarnation Happened. Then, He, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, formed a church, the Catholic Church, to save souls. That doesn’t mean you have to like it. Even so, I sincerely hope and pray that someday, you do, and that you join. It’s obvious that care about the Lord. I’d like it that you should be saved. I do not say this to make you think that I judge you. I do not.

I appreciate that, and I certainly take it that you are not judging (condemning) me. The sincerity in your post is evident.

The part that I would point out is that discussion is not about "disliking" anything. Perhaps my ill-chosen words sounded as though my concern is about liking or disliking something. But, that is not the case. This is about whether something is true or false.

Although there are many things I dislike about the Roman church, if it appeared as though their doctrines aligned with Scripture, I would bend the knee and acknowledge that. Unfortunately, the organization, like many (or perhaps most) organizations, just does not comport with Scripture.

For example, the Jews were cajoled, ordered, offered, threatened by God to exercise their wills to follow Him in obedience and integrity. God made the demands perfectly clear and told them to choose Him over their rebellion. Some from your organization have carefully pointed this out. These FReepers have heard, ostensibly from the authorities of Rome, that the demand to choose implies the ability to choose.

What is missed by this claim is that as one continues to read the story in the OT, it becomes patently clear that the Jews did not do this and could not have because they lacked the equipment on board sufficient to comply. And, the prophets note that this dilemma is due to God's operation.

Notice, Is. 63:17

Why, O Lord, dost Thou cause us to stray from Thy ways, and harden our hearts from fearing Thee?

Is 64:7

And there is no one who calls on Thy name, who arouses himself to take hold of Thee; for Thou has hidden Thy face from us, and has delivered us into the power of our iniquities.

Prov. 16:9

The mind of man plans his ways, but the Lord directs his steps.

You see, if one understands "free will" to be the operation of man's choices unaided, unguided, unmangaged by God, then one collides with Scriptural descriptions of something slightly different going on. Evidently, God, being God, is managing all aspects of His universe...including us.

But, this idea is usually not welcome because it is argued that it makes us puppets, or God guilty of our sin, or both. However, the genius of God is that He can do this as the transcendent Holy One of Israel and we cannot "feel" it. And, according to Paul, this still makes us guilty, God innocent, and us stuck in the hands of the potter. Rom. 9:16ff "So then it does not depend on the man who runs (acts) or the man who wills (chooses), but upon God who has mercy. And He will have mercy on some and harden some. You will ask me, 'How then can He still find fault, for who resists His will?'"

Paul's answer? Too bad for us. That is the way things are. Like you said, I may disagree with or dislike this principle...but that does not change it from being true. The same thing applies to the Roman church. Since it will not acknowledge that God, not man, is controlling all wills in the universe, the organization stands outside of the biblically revealed truth of the Gospel.

Instead, Rome wants to claim the "keys" to the kingdom, an idea it has promoted in itself. No one else believes that Rome was the object of this statement...only Rome. Read the passage for yourself (Matt. 16) and ask, honestly, where is the Roman group? It is not even contemplated. And did not seize power for at least 200 years.

So, if the Scriptures tell us that, yes, God is demanding that you change, but then tell us that we may not change unless He allows, we are left to harmonize these two statements. If the second subsumes the first, then the demand to change is simply conditioned by whether He allows you. But, Rome is unwilling acknowledge that "free will" is a manufactured idea. Even this unwillingness, however, is because God is not giving them eyes to see. And, that is why we believers in Christ, alone, reject Rome. Not because we do not like her, but because she embraces error.

172 posted on 10/17/2011 10:35:38 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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