Posted on 10/10/2011 7:50:42 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
The news is abuzz with the question of Mormonism, cults, and Christianity.
A cult is often understood as a religious group with strange beliefs out of the cultural mainstream (which many today increasingly consider biblical Christianity). Since "cult" is difficult to define, scholars tend not to use it.
However, the question of what beliefs characterize Christianity is not a new debate, and is one we should not shy away from if words and definitions matter.
Many people are shocked at the idea that some pastors believe Mormons are not Christians-- "judgementalism" is decried and "intolerance" proclaimed. Yet, as that may be new news to some, the view that Mormons are not Christians is historic and very widely held view.
In 2007, LDS spokesman Michael Otterson provided a forthright article in the On Faith section of the Washington Post / Newsweek. He explains,
The question, "Are Mormons Christian?" is a good starting point for this discussion. When some conservative Protestants say Mormons aren't Christian, it is deeply offensive to Latter-day Saints. Yet when Latter-day Saints assert their Christianity, some of those same Christians bitterly resent it. Why? Because both sides are using the same terms to describe different things...
When someone says Mormons aren't Christian... he or she usually means that Mormons don't embrace the traditional interpretation of the Bible that includes the Trinity. "Our Jesus" is somehow different from "their Jesus." Further, they mean that some Mormon teachings are so far outside Christian orthodoxy of past centuries that they constitute almost a new religion.
Otterson is correct here. For evangelicals and others, "Christian" is more than a self-identified label. It is hard for people in tolerant America to hear, "I know you SAY you are a Christian, but you are not." Yet, basic to evangelicalism (and historic Protestantism) is that some people are Christians, some people are not, and not all people who think that they are Christians actually are.
"Christianity" is not based on what you say about yourself or your beliefs. "Christianity" must be connected to how your beliefs agree with the beliefs of biblical Christianity.
With Mormonism becoming a major topic of discussion, about a year ago LifeWay Research decided to ask Protestant pastors their view. According to our random sample, most pastors feel strongly Mormons are not Christians. After several reporters asked if we had some data, I decided to release it. You can download the full report here: Protestant Pastor Views of Mormonism.
The survey polled 1,000 American Protestant pastors asking them to respond to the statement, "I personally consider Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) to be Christians." It's a forthright question some will find offensive, but it will be an increasingly important question.
Three-quarters of Protestant pastors (75%) disagree with the statement, "I personally consider Mormons... to be Christians," including 60 percent who strongly disagree and 15 percent who somewhat disagree. Just 11 percent somewhat agree, 6 percent strongly agree and 9 percent do not know.
In other words, the view that "Mormons are not Christians" is the widely and strongly held view among Protestant pastors. That does not meant they do not respect Mormons as persons, share their values on family, and have much in common. Yet, they simply view Mormonism as a distinct religion outside of basic teachings of Christianity. Many of these pastors may know Mormons consider themselves Christians, but Protestant pastors overwhelmingly do not consider them such.
I know this is an unpleasant question to many, and one that some will use as a hammer on evangelicals, but let me encourage a different view.
The fundamental issue is: how divergent can your views be and still be a part of a faith group (in contrast to forming a new one). Can you believe, for instance, that Muhammad is not the prophet and still call yourself a Muslim? The vast majority of Muslims would say you cannot. For Christians, calling yourself a Christian while not believing that God has always existed as the triune Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is as inconceivable.
This is not simply a conservative evangelical Christian view. Methodists have said "the LDS Church is not a part of the historic, apostolic tradition of the Christian faith." Even Roman Catholics (hardly conservative Protestants) don't recognize LDS baptism.
As I said before, a cult is difficult to define. But Christianity has been defined a certain way for centuries. There is no reason to be shocked that devout Christians consider those with a different view of Christ as non-Christians. In the current cultural climate it may be uncomfortable, but it is anything but shocking.
No, they believe in a false Christ, one contrary to the Bible. The Bible trumps dictionary.com.
Mormons are in no way, Christians, and considering for the first 150+ years, they didn’t WANT to be considered Christians, it begs the question, why the change?
If you would like to discuss individual Mormon teachings regarding Christ, let me know. I have a lot of experience and knowledge regarding LDS theology, more than most even (see tagline).
Pharisee alert. They accused Jesus Christ Himself of being from the devil.
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And the LDS claim that Jesus and Lucifer are ‘spirit brothers’ and rivals to be ‘Savior’.
Sandy, Jesus rebuked the pharisees because of their rules, the LDS are the Pharisees, not S&S.
Find out the TRUTH about Mormonism...the truth Mormons lie and cover up.
mormonoutreach.org
utlm.org
And no ignorance here, first hand knowledge. Mormons are not Christians.
Mormon prophets also teach that Joseph Smith is our judge, and we cannot enter the “celestial Kingdom” (Heaven) without Smith’s permission.
[There is] no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, p. 190
“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 289
“For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the Christian’ churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men.”
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 282
“He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 9, p. 312
“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]”
- Apostle George Q. Cannon, Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, 1988, p. 142
“I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God.. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them; if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgressionif you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again.”
- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 154
Chorus
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet; dont go astray.
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,
Follow the prophet; he knows the way.
“Mormon prophets also teach. . . “
But, but, but that is just their ‘opinion’ /sarc
Huh? That made no sense.
Did I stutter?
hey dont believe that works do anything for your salvation, only that if you dont have any works you dont have any faith and arent a true believer
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Fail. That isn’t what they believe. BTW, they don’t call it communion, they call it sacrament and it uses “Wonderbread” and water. Also LDS ‘sacrament’ is only a renewal of their Baptism covenants where they promise not to sin all week and ‘keep their covenants’.
Regarding works, complete fail there, LDS believe ‘salvation’ (resurrection) is grace only, but ‘exaltation’ or making it back to the presence of the Father (Heaven and for them godhood) is based upon works. “grace” MAY kick in after they have done all they can do themselves. In essence they make Jesus a loan shark they have to pay back with their good works. The only salvation by grace is resurrection.
This is just another way the LDS twist words and definitions to make them ‘sound’ Christian. The LDS not only reject the the doctrine of Salvation by grace, they mock it.
Here are some quotes from LDS leaders....
“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation,” (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
“There will be a General Salvation for all in the sense in which that term is generally used, but salvation, meaning resurrection, is not exaltation” (Stephen L. Richards, Contributions of Joseph Smith, LDS tract, p.5).
“All men are saved by grace alone without any act on their part, meaning they are resurrected” (Bruce McConkie, What Mormons Think of Christ”, LDS tract, p.28).
Spencer W. Kimball, the twelfth president of the LDS Church, wrote:
Immortality has been accomplished by the Saviors sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men.
This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matt. 5:48) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal.. Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft Inc., 1972), Ibid., 208-209.
From the Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 25:23 - “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”
Marion G Romney wrote” “The truth is that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do. (See 2 Ne. 25:23.) There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now.
“Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone, ‘for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.’” - James E. Faust “The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope,” Ensign, Nov. 2001, p. 18
Harrold B. Lee - The Savior’s blood, His atonement, will save us, but only after we have done all we can to save ourselves by keeping His commandments.
Mormons teach that salvation (exaltation) comes through faith in Christ plus baptism plus works, i.e., we must add to the work of Christ. In the Bible ‘salvation’ means deliverance from the consequence (eternal separation from God) of our sin. Mormon leaders have redefined the word ‘salvation’ to have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:
“There will be a General Salvation for all in the sense in which that term is generally used, but salvation, meaning resurrection, is not exaltation” (Stephen L. Richards, Contributions of Joseph Smith, LDS tract, p.5).
“All men are saved by grace alone without any act on their part, meaning they are resurrected” (Bruce McConkie, What Mormons Think of Christ”, LDS tract, p.28).
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus’ plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to “deny men their agency and to dethrone god,” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 92).
LDS apostle Boyd K. Packer says this about Christ sacrifice to us (Christ is the ‘benefactor’)... Then, said the benefactor, you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison. (in Conference Report, Apr. 1977, pp. 7980; or Ensign, May 1977, pp. 5455). Thus Christ extended a loan to cover our sins but we have to ‘pay him back’.
I can provide even more quotes from LDS sources regarding these doctrines.
No, but it didn’t make sense. Please clarify because they way you worded it, I have never heard in ANY Christian church or any theology book/class.
Perhaps you should have...
What is a Christan? One who believes in Christ. Mormons believe in Christ. So it is up to you to get your mind right.
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Mormons believe in a FALSE Christ, that makes them not Christians. WHAT you believe about Christ matters. Demons also believe Christ is the Son of God, doesn’t make them Christians.
JA even the LDS on FR often make light of “grace only” and once saved always saved and always argue with the book of James, out of context of course, about the importance of works in saving the soul.
What you state is a Christian belief not a Mormon one, indeed the opposite as stated by the LDS here THEMSELVES...
Is it up to all the leadership of the major Christian faiths to get their minds right as well?
Each has clear statements showing that Mormonism is outside the family of Christ. They ahve been posted on FR more than a few times.
I would start with the Vatican, go big from the get go, get their minds right...
There are times even a face palm is not enough.
Is Christian doctrine based wholly and follows purely YHVH’s Covenant made with His children. Does it incorporate everything YHVH commanded from Genesis to Revelation? Answer: ABSOLUTELY NO! So what right do Christians have to throw stones at Mormons? Answer: NONE
There are times even a face palm is not enough.
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And we are seeing more and more of those lately...
Exactly. Mormons, in particular, use the ‘safe’ definition and word it in way that makes them sound Christian, but they don’t really get it.
Been there, done that, got saved out of it...
I had a guy on another thread here tell me that same thing just today. Both parts. He doesn’t believe the Bible to be the word of God either, yet calls himself a “Christian”.
It is my belief that Jesus Christ is not God. Never was God and never will be God. He is the Son of God who CHOSE to come to the Earth and provide a way for the souls of ALL to be redeemed.
...I believe, that ALL followers of Christ are “Christians” just as when He was here.
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Well at least you are honest about Mormon doctrine, that is better than some on here.
And your definition of “Christian” is wrong, it isn’t what YOU believe the definition is, it is what the Bible says, but I’m willing to bet you believe the Bible is only the Word of God ‘as far as it is translated correctly’.
BTW, Mormon leaders (and Mormons in general) have judged “Christians” since the foundation of the LDS church. Want quotes?
He died for all men, but his sacrificial death only profits those who believe.
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Very true. However, Mormon doctrine is that Jesus only died to be resurrected so we could ALL be resurrected (called general salvation).
They teach he bore sin in the Garden, not on the Cross and didn’t need to die for sin. We also have to ‘pay him back’ in order to return to God the Father and earn exaltation (individual salvation and godhood).
So, when a Mormon says “we believe that Christ died to save us” what they MEAN is “we believe that Christ died so we could be resurrected”. When they say “Christ paid for our sins so we could return to Heavenly Father” they MEAN “Christ sweat blood in the garden so we can earn our own salvation through our works and membership in the Mormon church”.
The key in dealing with Mormons is DEFINE EVERYTHING and watch what they say vs. what they really mean.
http://utlm.org/onlineresources/terminologymain.htm
No. But thanks anyway!
I am perfectly capable of making up my own mind and have all that I need to do so.
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