Posted on 10/03/2011 9:24:36 AM PDT by jesus4life
How much time to you spend proselytizing and debating with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists? It is evident to me that many who spend so much time attacking the Church are not really interested in the souls of Catholics, only in elevating the status of their own belief system in comparison and competition. It looks like your motivation is far more about you than about God.
It looks like your motivation is far more about you than about God.
The fact is that i do desire the salvation or souls, and thus often express gospel that saves those who are of a broken heart and contrite spirit, and do not preach a particular church, much less me. And i have spent much time debating other beliefs, but Roman Catholicism is the major default religion, and as i am a former Roman Catholic and know both sides, and bear no personal bitterness toward her, but it is Roman Catholics that are the predominate religious party on FR in posting their beliefs and asserting her supremacy, and thus it is only fitting that i and others refute in the interest of the glory of God and His truth and the salvation of souls, which i pray to be used for.
And rather than dealing with reasons for faith, I could ask you why you resort to questioning my motivation and opine that it is selfish due to my (reasoned) arguments against her, which would only be an issue if motivation was the debate, while these charges could easily be addressed to your church and her defenders, as it is actually Rome which formally exalts herself as uniquely supreme, assuredly, perpetually infallible, with submission to her being necessary for salvation, and her apologists defend her by doing the same. And yet complain when challenged and refuted. But i need not question their motive unless that is an argument, though i think many would have us burned at the stake, as motive itself does not necessarily make an proposition of truth right or wrong.
You speak for me as well.
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Cor. 5:19-21.
This is the greatest commission of all.
When you (collectively) spend all of your energies preaching to those who already fully embrace and live the Nicene Creed rather than seeking to save the souls of the truly lost you have to expect your motives to be questioned.
I would remind you from the Catechism: "There is no doctrine which could be better, more precious and more splendid than the text of the Gospel". If you disagree with that then we have nothing to discuss.
Yet you deny that with belief that the “majesterium” is a higher power than scripture.
Be it “passing” the catechism, memorizing traditions, repeating the rosary, bowing before various idols, praying to this or that saint, being familiar with various authors and their writings, honoring Rome and the Pope, attending events, confessing to Priests...and the lists go on and on.
Therefore one would ‘never’ reach the penthouse floor....they can never ‘do’enough as Rome continues to add yet more hoops to jump thru along the way.
Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Rarely have I seen discussions or many comments from catholics about the sufficiency of Christ or the gospel message except an occasional reference to it... which would lead one to think perhaps many catholics don't understand what the gospel really is.
When I have attempted to speak with catholics in my workplace and such they have very little understanding of what Jesus says, but they are huge on attending rituals and masses to see and be part of the process which they are taught they must ‘do’.
I think most people here are trying hard to let the truth be seen and heard. As with all people who are often deceived by false teachings it's important to let the truth be seen and spoken. But each must determine if they are going to abide by what the Lord does say and teach, or by the ‘leadership and church’ and what they say one should adhere to. <p.
It's not such a good thing to have ones belief rest on any church or denomination above that of Christ Himself....it does appear, and the catholic membership does attest to this, that they are not as learned in the things of Christ as they profess to be rather they rely on what they are told to do and say...and this from the Vatican....along with various authors and traditions of the past...far more than scriptures and what Christ so clearly teaches.<p
“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 2 Cor. 5:19-21.
HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Humbling verse isn't it. Nothing we have done or could do is going to change the fact ..."it is finished"...just as Jesus said....or....He did nothing at all.
There is no inbetween or in part...and we have His resurrection to prove it!
We preach that people embrace CHRIST. Not a creed, not a statement of faith, not a denomination. As long as people are embracing anything but Jesus, they are going to hell.
People need to embrace Christ and live in Christ. Creeds don't save. Christ does.
NL, most Prots (esp. evangelicals) affirm the Nicene Creed, (381 version), “one holy catholic and apostolic Church” being understood as universal and of apostolic faith, while it is much of your tribe who attacks us as in need of conversion/ Of course, there is a division here, as your have those who hold to the pre V2 understanding of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, or interpret Lemun Gentium accordingly and those who are more ecumenical.
I do not think that all RCs are lost, but i was lost as a one, though baptized and confirmed, and who affirmed what they told me to believe, and thus like others, i was treated as a Christian, but it was not until about age 25 that was i convicted of my lost state, without any preaching and knowing no evangelicals, but after i heard how Christ saves those who are damned and destitute i believed it by heartfelt repentance and faith, and was manifestly born again. Even nature seemed new to me.
I had been going to Mass weekly, but now i had an ongoing hunger to know how to please God from the Bible, and wanted to serve Him (and sought to as a CCD teacher and lector). But with very very rare exceptions in this heavenly RC area, i found no one who had such conversion and effects, some in the charismatic meetings i went to being but evangelical radio helped feed my soul, and after 6 years, God led me out in an evident manner in response to sincere prayer, as i was serving God, and into an evangelical church around where i used to live (there were not many) among such i found discipleship (though i am rather independent) and unique fellowship, which happens among evangelicals both spontaneously and formally across denominational lines, based upon a common shared conversion from Scripture and personal relationship with Jesus.
I am not going to give my life story, and i am not promoting myself though you infer i am, but do want the salvation of souls, and and do not believe most RCs are born again based on doctrine and their testimony, and the same is true of most Episcopalians, United Methodist and a few other from institutionalized church which are more form than reality. And no, i do not think i have arrived, but i know what scripture teaches and faith effects, and the stats back me up, besides in years past (as part of a Baptist church then) knocking on thousands of doors evangelizing, but not to make them Baptist, but born again Christians.
And i do affirm that “There is no doctrine which could be better, more precious and more splendid than the text of the Gospel” but so do Mormons, but who like Rome, effectively places themselves as the supreme assuredly infallible authority over it and by such equate another source of revelation equal to it. And that is what these debates go on. May all have a God night.
Jude 1:19
Do you embrace Scripture?
Only inasmuch as it leads me to Christ.
John 5:36-40 36But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Galatians 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
Only inasmuch as it leads me to Christ.
But those who embrace "a creed, a statement of faith, a denomination" that leads them to Christ "are going to hell"?
If they’re counting on fidelity to the creed or statement of faith to be what saves them, yes.
The creed or statement of faith is the means to the end, not the end itself. Intellectual acknowledgement and assent to a creed is not saving faith in and trusting in Christ Himself for salvation.
I've never met a person who thinks a creed saves them. I have met some Protestants who believe stating a sinner's prayer saves them.
The creed or statement of faith is the means to the end, not the end itself.
So, there are circumstances when it's ok to embrace them.
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