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To: Jvette; smvoice; Not gonna take it anymore
Mary’s Assumption is in perfect keeping with Scripture regarding the fact that we know that God has taken, body and soul at least four people to heaven, Enoch, Elijah, Moses and Abraham.

Factcheck:

Abraham, according to Gen 25:9, was laid to rest by Isaac and Ishmael, who buried him in the cave of Machpelah, along side of his wife Sarah, who preceded him (Gen 23). this site is called the Cave of the Patriarchs and is located in Hebron. AFAIR, There is *no* account of his translation whatsoever.

Moses was buried by YHWH Himself, in an unknown grave in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor (Deut. 34:6). To further the point, The devil disputed with Michael the Archangel over the body of Moses. To my knowledge, the only group that declares Moses to be translated bodily into heaven are the Mormons.

And no, btw, Mary's assumed assumption is not "perfect keeping with Scripture", as the only two known to have ascended, Enoch and Elijah, never tasted death (but likely will before they are done), and were specifically mentioned in the Scriptures. There can be no contention over the facts, as the Bible is explicit.

According to the earliest tradition I am aware of, Mary died, and was laid to rest in the Tomb of Mary in Jerusalem. Later revision has Thomas arriving late, and the tomb being opened so that he could pay his respects - whereupon the body of Mary was found to be absent. Even later revisions complicate the tale, and look a lot like revisionism to move away from the early tradition that Mary died, and was buried (being very different from the only two instances of real translation).

In keeping with reasonable historicity, without further evidences, the historical record closest to the event should bear the most weight... And that record (originating c.600/700AD, IIRC) even though formed substantially distant from the event, and thereby hardly believable, still depicts a bodily death and interment... which differs greatly from those previous accounts where death never occurred.

2,949 posted on 09/12/2011 4:37:37 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

Jesus tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man and how Lazarus is carried by angels to the bosom of Abraham when he died.

Moses is with Jesus at the Transfiguration.

Is the story of Abraham just a ghost story?

Was Moses a vision conjured up Jesus?

And what happened to all those who rose from their graves at the time of the crucifixion?

What we read in Scripture is not just a telling or retelling of stories, they are lessons to be learned, in them we learn of the glory of God, the history of His relationship to His Children and how He has redeemed us with His own Son. Scripture is written so that we can grasp these things and believe.

These discussion remind me of the Saducees and Pharisees and the scribes who sought to trip Jesus up with “tests” regarding Scripture. They knew their Scripture by heart and thought to use it to prove that Jesus couldn’t possibly be who He said He said He was.

Jesus says to them, 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

They knew Scriptures backwards and forwards and yet could not see Jesus as the Christ even when He stood right before them. They were hard of heart and tied to their book and could not see past what they thought the Messiah was and would do. Scripture gives testimony of Jesus, but it did not contain all that there was to know of Him and because it didn’t they did not know Him.

So many here are like scientists who study the minutiae of the physical world and how it works, yet still do not know how it came to be. How something came from nothing and because they cannot know that, they do not see God in His creation and so they do not believe.

They study Scripture thinking it is only in the book that God is found and there is no more to Him than what is written. Yet, He is not bound by book, they are.

In John’s gospel, the same one quoted above, Jesus also says

20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Other translations say it this way,  

19 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I assure you, the Son cannot do anything by himself, but only what he sees the Father do. And whatever he does, the Son also does. 20 The Father loves the Son and shows him everything he does; and he will show him even greater things than these, so that you will be amazed.
21 As the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so the Son gives life to whom he wills. 22 

Also in John’s gospel...
20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”

And in John’s gospel....12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.[c]

God will reveal what He will reveal, when He will reveal it.


2,966 posted on 09/12/2011 8:23:20 AM PDT by Jvette
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