- Mark Twain's Own Autobiography: The Chapters from the North American Review
The millions of deaths figure attributed to the inquisition is by all appearances way over the top unless the intent of whoever visualized the number was to include all direct and indirect deaths from forced conversions to Christianity in both the old and the new world for as long as the practice continued.
And likewise, the claim from the Vatican that the inquisition wasn’t that bad is self-serving. Notice the careful wording (emphasis mine:)
If we did, there would be no accountability for indirect deaths caused by the deplorable conditions of the death camps or the incarceration itself, the loss of life due to people being moved out of their homes etc.
Also whether one is looking at forced conversions of Jews and Muslims in Europe or Indians in Mexico or Aztecs, etc. – one must question the statistics per se since people of color and abhorrent beliefs were often not considered people at all but savages or pagans or something less than a person.
So if a local arm of the government or military unit slaughtered a village of savages, or indirectly killed them by merely burning their village and livestock - would they have reported it? Would they have considered them animals? How many of them would have been counted in the first place?
Jeepers, one of the big problems with nailing down the true damage of man-eating tigers in the past was that the villagers themselves did not keep records.
Remember that Rummel's PhD is in Political Science. His interest is in the deadly nature of centralized political power, e.g. communism.
Rummel considers all such things and lays the blame on the government authorizing the death whether directly, indirectly. In the case of the inquisition, he includes both Catholic and Protestant inquisitions (inquisition in Spain, Portugal, Netherlands and New World) from the 16th to 18th centuries. And Rummel puts the deaths of Aztecs, American Indians et al in separate categories on the same table even though many would reasonably argue that it was part of "winning" the world for Christ, i.e. forced conversions.
To account for this less-than-human valuation of certain peoples, in estimating deaths he is known to take the estimated population before versus after an event in question.
I have no idea at all what if anything Rummel thinks of the findings of these newer studies – or how he would weight the documents offered by the Vatican. But I’m fairly confident, if he believed the numbers to be better than his own, he would want to update his own statistics as he has done before. If nothing else, it could affect the "minimum" on the table.
As his website says, contact him at Hawaii.edu. His eaddy is at the bottom of his C.V.
Natural Law and vladimir998, I am pinging you only as a courtesy. I choose not to reply to ad hominems whether directed at Rummel or me.
Well said and well written. Again, thanks.
Offering clearly incorrect numbers from Rummel as a “middle ground” is nonsensical.
Also, I can see you know nothing about history with this astonishingly erroneous comment:
“Would anyone seriously trust an accused regime’s records as “the” authentic original source document?”
With the inquisition and in regard to the number of people questioned, tried and executed later by the state, the answer according to all modern, reputable historians is yes. You make the mistake of comparing the inquisition to a “regime”. It wasn’t, not anywhere. It did not have the modern regime’s need to create or hide statistics. Also, in regard to those questioned, the records are almost verbatim records. Again, they are always trustworthy in regard to numbers.
“If this were the holocaust instead of the inquisition, wouldn’t we raise an eyebrow if someone claimed that the only deaths that should count are the ones where a Jew was executed after a trial according to German law at the time?”
Your comparison is nonsensical. The Nazis had a deliberate program of extermination. Thus, those they exterminated through murder or horrendous treatment in camps would naturally count toward the total number of Jews murdered by the Nazis. The inquisitional was not multi-national, but usually local. It was not commissioned or empowered to kill anyone ever under any circumstances. The numbers Rummel puts forward are bogus.
“Were Jews even considered German or human for that matter during the holocaust?”
No. But the inquisition never lost sight of the humanity of those it investigated. The goal was always to reconcile heretics to God, the Church and society.
You wrote:
“Remember that Rummel’s PhD is in Political Science.”
Right, he’s not an historian.
“Rummel considers all such things and lays the blame on the government authorizing the death whether directly, indirectly. In the case of the inquisition, he includes both Catholic and Protestant inquisitions (inquisition in Spain, Portugal, Netherlands and New World) from the 16th to 18th centuries. And Rummel puts the deaths of Aztecs, American Indians et al in separate categories on the same table even though many would reasonably argue that it was part of “winning” the world for Christ, i.e. forced conversions.”
Sorry, it makes no sense in any case.
“I have no idea at all what if anything Rummel thinks of the findings of these newer studies – or how he would weight the documents offered by the Vatican. But I’m fairly confident, if he believed the numbers to be better than his own, he would want to update his own statistics as he has done before. If nothing else, it could affect the “minimum” on the table.”
The truth has been known for years. Since he is not a historian, and seems to only be acquainted with decades old books, I have no reason to believe he cared much about accurate numbers from the start. His thesis is about the dangers of governmental power. It is not about numbers in themselves.
“As his website says, contact him at Hawaii.edu. His eaddy is at the bottom of his C.V.”
Again, if he honestly cared about accuracy he would have simply gone to the library or contacted a specialist.
“Natural Law and vladimir998, I am pinging you only as a courtesy. I choose not to reply to ad hominems whether directed at Rummel or me.”
Thanks for the ping. I made no ad hominem attacks. Everything I said was true.
I wish we got some credit for the heroic “religious” mostly Dominicans and Jesuits, but Franciscans as well who were vociferous in denouncing the exploitation of Los Indios in the New World and who argued victoriously (but without practical effect — which depended on the King and nobility) before the King of Spain for the rights of non-Christian peoples. Antonio de Montesinos threatened to deny the sacraments to the adventurers in the New World who enslaved and abused the indigenous peoples.
The forced conversions in Spain were the result of the secular King, presiding over an uncertain state, expelling all who weren’t Christian. The Spanish Inquisition had no authority over or concern for non-Catholics.
The concern was false conversos, largely. Even after the Reformation the local ruler got to control the religious affiliation of his subjects. So I think there’s good reason to acknowledge a real and important distinction between the State’s role in creating an oppressive atmosphere, especially when one recalls the anxiety later expressed by the Pope.
Of course we Catholics will say things like “not that bad” when we consider these days that any torture is abominable. The very phrase “gentle torture” wrung bitter laughter from the Lay Dominicans when we learned that our order restricted the ordeals to such limits.
In the context and expectations of one time, the gentle restraints, even the moral accomplishments and advances of an earlier time may seem barbaric.