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To: CynicalBear

Please, let your heart rest easy. Mine does.

So, we have two terms which you seem to use interchangeably and which I take to be two different things.

To not be found explicitly in Scriptures is not the same as unBiblical or unScriptural.

I have proven, through these verses, that to believe that Mary is in heaven, body and soul is not unBiblical. It is entirely Scriptural for God to take into heaven “holy people”. Mary, I would hope you could agree, was certainly a holy person.

The Trinity, the doctrine and the word Trinity are not explicitly to be found in Scripture though the doctrine is completely Scriptural.

You say you believe it because Scripture says it,or that it is clearly stated in Scripture, but it is not. There are many, many verses which support it. If you know of one verse in Scripture that clearly says, God is One in Three Persons, and this is called the Trinity, please post it.

And there are those who read the very same Scriptures and do not believe it. They disavow the Trinity. They can point to what they believe are contradictions to that doctrine in Scripture.

I am not going to argue the Trinity, only that whether you care to admit it or not, Christians, ALL Christians adhere to this belief and it was defined by the Church.

Another thing that is Scriptural but not found explicitly in Scripture is Sunday worship or Sunday as the Sabbath.
There is nowhere in Scripture where the Apostles or any other disciple say that they stopped going to synagogue on Saturday. But, that the Apostles went there is. Do you still follow them in that practice?

Probably not. Most Christians celebrate the Lord’s Day on Sunday, the day of the Resurrection. That comes straight from the Catholic Church and if you meet on Sunday and not on Saturday, then you are following a doctrine of the Church.

Again, it is Scriptural but not in Scriptures.

I directed you to Catholic sites, only for brevity and because they supported an underlying interpretation of Scripture which I was using. It was meant to show the historocity of those beliefs within the Christian community. I also told you that there were many who explain these things in more depth of theology than I.

I mention Revelation in regards to the Ark and how John immediately after seeing the Ark, then sees the woman. Go and read the entire passage regarding the woman and the dragon noting the very last passage...

17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Does Israel bear testimony to Jesus or is it Christians who do this?

And you cannot gloss over that the woman bears a male child.

And does Mary not flee to Egypt with Joseph and Jesus to escape the persecution of Herrod? Do you know how long they were there?

Consider also that in the NT, Mary and only Mary is called “Woman”, something John would have known well.

I find it interesting that in the first and last book of the Bible we find the woman. And again, only Mary is ever called woman. It’s not a coincidence.

At the very least, the passage could certainly contain symbolism which points to both Israel and Mary. The whole of that Book references many different times and places and people.


1,294 posted on 09/06/2011 5:07:27 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: Jvette
>> I have proven, through these verses, that to believe that Mary is in heaven, body and soul is not unBiblical.<<

Yes, I do believe that to say May is in heaven “in body” the same as Jesus or those who were raised at Jesus death is unbiblical. There is no Biblical justification to believe that Mary is any different then any other mortal who dies today whose body has not been resurrected.

>> The Trinity, the doctrine and the word Trinity are not explicitly to be found in Scripture though the doctrine is completely Scriptural.<<

Who told you that? It most definitely is in scripture. Here is only a small portion of what is in scripture to prove it.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

>> God is One in Three Persons, and this is called the Trinity, please post it.<<

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

>>and it was defined by the Church.<<

No, it was “defined” in scripture.

You said: >>Most Christians celebrate the Lord’s Day on Sunday, the day of the Resurrection. That comes straight from the Catholic Church and if you meet on Sunday and not on Saturday, then you are following a doctrine of the Church.<<

Then you said: >>Again, it is Scriptural but not in Scriptures.<<

Nope, it is not scriptural. And no I don’t follow the doctrine of the “Church” as you so proudly espouse the RCC to be. There is no scriptural authority to claim Sunday to be the Sabbath or the “Lords Day”. All days are “the day of our Lord”. The Jewish Sabbath was the seventh day and has never changed. Romans 14:5 “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” Your “Church” likes its rituals and rules but being Biblically base not so much.

>>Does Israel bear testimony to Jesus or is it Christians who do this?<<

During the last 3 ½ years of the Tribulation the 144,000 out of Israel do indeed “bear testimony” of Jesus as Messiah.

>>And you cannot gloss over that the woman bears a male child.<<

Of course not. Jesus was Jewish after all.

>>And does Mary not flee to Egypt with Joseph and Jesus to escape the persecution of Herrod? <<

But there was no flood which the earth swallowed up during their time in Egypt.

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

But we can easily deduce how long they were there.

Matthew 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: 15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

>> Do you know how long they were there?<<

It was “until the death of Herod” but there are disagreements on exactly when that was. It doesn’t matter however because if Revelation was actually talking about Mary we know that it would have been exactly 3 ½ years. But that doesn’t fit either. We have to go back to Daniels prophesy of the 70th week. It’s that 7 year period that Revelation is talking about split into two 3 ½ year periods. The last 3 ½ years (thousand two hundred and threescore days) are when the Jews “the woman” are protected in the “wilderness”.

The woman in Revelation cannot possibly be talking specifically about Mary.

1,324 posted on 09/06/2011 6:33:15 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Jvette
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1,390 posted on 09/06/2011 9:53:29 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Jvette
Consider also that in the NT, Mary and only Mary is called “Woman”, something John would have known well.

Sorry, that is not correct. Jesus called other women than his mother, "Woman" many times.

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Luke 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.

John 4:21 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

John 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

1,407 posted on 09/06/2011 10:36:23 PM PDT by boatbums ( God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Jvette; CynicalBear
Consider also that in the NT, Mary and only Mary is called “Woman”, something John would have known well.

I find it interesting that in the first and last book of the Bible we find the woman. And again, only Mary is ever called woman. It’s not a coincidence

Really?

MATTHEW 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.

Luke 13
11 And there was a woman who had had a spirit of infirmity for eighteen years; she was bent over and could not fully straighten herself.

12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."

JOHN 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

John 20
13] They said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him."

15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom do you seek?" Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away."

1,703 posted on 09/07/2011 2:12:39 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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