Posted on 09/02/2011 9:07:47 AM PDT by marshmallow
Minneapolis, Minnesota (CNN) –Prior to 2006, few people even knew that then-Minnesota state legislator Keith Ellison was a Muslim. Because of his English name, he said, no one thought to ask.
But five years ago, when he ran for a seat in the United States House of Representatives - a race he would go on to win - word of his religious affiliation began to spread.
“When I started running for Congress it actually took me by surprise that so many people were fascinated with me being the first Muslim in Congress,” said Ellison, a Democrat now serving his third term in the House.
“But someone said to me, ‘Look Keith, think of a person of Japanese origin running for Congress six years after Pearl Harbor–this might be a news story.’”
Though Ellison's status as the first Muslim elected to Congress is widely known, fewer are aware that he was born into a Catholic family in Detroit and was brought up attending Catholic schools.
But he said he was never comfortable with that faith.
“I just felt it was ritual and dogma,” Ellison said. “Of course, that’s not the reality of Catholicism, but it’s the reality I lived. So I just kind of lost interest and stopped going to Mass unless I was required to.”
It wasn’t until he was a student at Wayne State University in Detroit when Ellison began, “looking for other things.”
(Excerpt) Read more at religion.blogs.cnn.com ...
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
And what would we call that dog if it was a female?
Some are enslaved by their own preconceptions and prejudices. We all risk that.
One prejudice is that the Catholic Church is this top-down, more than Nazi in efficiency, control, and homogeneity outfit.
This prejudice comes from ignorance of the facts and of the principles of Catholic governance.
The Jesuits, who produce “America” are, by and large in a kind of simmering rebellion. I don’t mean all of them, but the ones in the US are, with exceptions, pretty far out there. The Jebbie who is allowed to preach at our parish because he’s a prof. at UVA and we’re the official UVA parish is the most liberal of our preachers, though he’s conservative, for a Jebbie.
You all don’t get the Catholic Church. Think Minestrone. Think constant ferment. Think a playground with a billion eight year old boys and not enough playground monitors.
For us, the survival of such a chaotic concern for nigh onto 2,000 years is a strong sign of God’s favir. We sure didn’t get here on our own ability.
You wrote:
“Paul learned from Christ Himself? Not personally. Paul wasn’t converted until after the resurrection.”
So Christ did not reveal Himself to St. Paul? Acts 9:4. Acts 26:13–14. Galatians 1:15–17. 1 Corinthians 15:8–11.
“When Paul said in 1 Corinthians 11:23 that he received of the Lord was he talking about the bread and the wine?”
He was talking about the Mass.
” Surely you weren’t speaking of direct teaching from Christ in person were you?”
St. Paul was. Again: Acts 9:4. Acts 26:13–14. Galatians 1:15–17. 1 Corinthians 15:8–11.
And St. Paul learned from the Church - not just Ananias, but from Peter: Galatians 1:18. Still, St. Paul received revelations from God (Galatians 2: 1-2) to confere with the Church on his preaching.
“With 2 Thessalonians 2:15 were you referencing the “by word or epistle” that Cyril of Jerusalem later agreed was “put in writing”? Let’s look at what he said. He is after all one of your church fathers isn’t he?”
Here is what he said:
“Anathema to those who spurn the teachings of the holy Fathers and the tradition of the holy Catholic Church, taking as a pretext and making their own the arguments of Arius, Nestorius, Eutyches, and Dioscorus, that unless we were evidently taught by the Old and New Testaments, we should not follow the teachings of the holy Fathers and of the holy Ecumenical Synods, and the tradition of the Catholic Church.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 4, 35, 350 A.D.)
After that, anything you say about Cyril and tradition is useless.
I suggest you see this so you don’t embarrass yourself again: http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/cyril.html
“It wasn’t until the 16th century at the Council of Trent that the Catholic Church stopped using scripture as it’s only authority.”
How long have you had that drug habit? Seriously, what you just suggested is so bizarre that it ranks right up there with denying the Holocaust or denying the moon landing. The Catholic Church never used ONLY scripture as its only authority. It couldn’t even if it wanted to. The Church existed BEFORE the New Testament. What you are suggesting is anachronistic and logically impossible.
“Are these types of invectives, pejoratives, and other attempts to demean or disparage the person you are debating a regular part of your personality?”
How exactly is asking you if you’ve ever read a verse a pejorative? Hos is saying you have no clue about a verse - and apparently you have no clue about it - a pejorative? If you can’t handle the truth, or how you hear about it, I suggest you leave this forum and take up basket weaving. Otherwise, gird your loins.
“I can’t find it in the fruits of the Spirit.”
Maybe you need a better relationship with the Holy Spirit. You certainly need to learn the Bible better.
You wrote:
“Makes one wonder just what sources are ever sufficient of your own churches membership and their authorities they take their cues from.”
No wonder about it: God, Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium. America magazine is none of those and never will be.
My comment was addressed to caww in post 3290 and I answered her question with this answer....
caww: “Why be accountable to a group of men when Christ Himself is available and willing to lead us into His truth...just as He said that he would do.”
mm: “ Why be accountable to a group of men?
Um, because we are never commanded to be accountable to a group of self-appointed, good old boys club men.”
That applies to ANY and ALL religious denominations. ANY denomination which demands adherence to its leadership under threat of intimidation or eternal damnation is in the same boat.
There is a place for accountability in the believer’s life, but when it becomes a control issue by the ones to whom you answer, then there’s a problem. Those in authority should be responsible to see that each person becomes all God intends that person to be, not to try to conform that person to what THEY think God wants that person to be. That leads to legalism and control and manipulation.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, be it in the political or religious realm. Religious people are not exempt from that danger.
My post 3417
Seems to me that I read somewhere in some book about Catholicism that there was this former priest who admitted that Catholics really worship Mary.
As said, The chance of dishonesty might have been high with such a set up as that. I agree, that's why I'll go with B_D, too. We even have some Moody grads as Freepers. Perhaps we could get the scoop from someone who knows. Anyone who REALLY wants to know, can easily go to their website:http://www.moody.edu/edu_mainpage.aspx?id=1166
Their Undergraduate Programs:
The Bible Department seeks to assist students to become biblically competent. The department aims to lead students to acquire a foundational and an intermediate understanding of the English Bible and, for the Biblical Language major, the Hebrew and Greek texts.
The goal of the Bible Department is to provide the necessary education for students to equip them to carry out effective ministry in the church and parachurch organizations, graduate studies in Bible and related disciplines and lifelong learning.
General Purpose of the Bible Department (for non-Bible/Biblical Languages/Bible-Music majors)
The Bible Department will aim to facilitate the education of Moody Bible Institute students so that they can
•Trace the story line of the Old and New Testaments
•Explain the canonical structure of the sixty-six books of the Bible
•Discuss the general historical and cultural background for the Old and New Testaments
•Discuss the formation of the canon and acquire a firm conviction that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant and authoritative Word of God
•Model a lifestyle that is biblically informed and distinctly Christian
You wrote:
“No, the way real life works for people with integrity is when they have no evidence to back up their slander they don’t publish it.”
No. I see no reason to not relate what the Protestant author said in a Protestant publication. If you have a problem with that, too bad.
“Only people that cannot feel shame because they have no scruples about lying, publish without any evidence.”
No, actually those who have no problem telling the truth even when they can’t prove it have no problem telling the truth even when they can’t prove it. Notice, you instantly go to “lying” even though you have not a single shred of evidence. Your hypocrisy is indictment enough of your actions and intent.
“In real life an institutions reputation is evidence and Moody’s reputation for upholding and propagating the Christian faith is impeccable.”
No, actually it isn’t. Even among some Protestants, there are those who think Moody is less than stellar. There is an anti-Catholic website - which is banned from being mentioned here at FR (you probably know which one I am talking about) says Moody Institute teaches a “perverted gospel”. Put it in google and you’ll see.
““In early 1886, D.L. Moody established the Chicago Evangelization Society...”
And some Protestants thought he was horrible: http://www.outsidethecamp.org/review22.htm
Clearly there are Protestants - a small number granted, but Protestants nonetheless - who despise Moody’s. In the past, some Protestants despised Moody himself, or at least what they think he preached. Impeccable? Apparently not according to some Protestants.
you wrote:
“Seems to me that I read somewhere in some book about Catholicism that there was this former priest who admitted that Catholics really worship Mary.”
We both know you don’t read books.
(snicker)
I heard someplace that he wrote a book about it. With pictures. I think I read he went undercover through neighborhoods and photographed people lighting candles and baking Mary cakes with little Mary statues on top. Each time a candle was lit, they would recite a rosary and fall prostrate to the ground while weeping uncontrollably and calling her name. Mary...Mary...we worship you without shame. Of course, these were all night pictures..That’s what I heard anyway.
If you’re going to cut and paste someone’s comments you probably should ping that person.
Possibly because, reading all y'all's posts, it's impossible to tell the truth by saying, "Oue protestant FRIENDS." Do you think we were all born yesterday, and can't decide if someone is disagreeing in a friendly way, or not?
Was that something you could not figure out for yourself?
Oh good grief. Yeah right. That’s why the rest of the chapter talking about the Last Supper.
After reading that site I’m going to agree with you and not debate Catholics much any more. With theology based in part on statements like “not one town ever ventured to make the claim that they had Mary’s bones” for the bodily assumption of Mary and having witnessed the Catholic apologists on this site and others I’ve come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is so far off it’s useless. I’m inclined to agree with those who believe that the Catholic Church is the church recorded in Revelation which those in that church are admonished to “come out of her”.
Prayer of Pope Pius XII
Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.
http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm
...Mary has a THRONE???
“I mentioned that there was a Moody Bible prof who refused to teach anything other than St. Paul’s letters because he believed the gospel was only in St. Paul. He didn’t believe Christ taught the gospel. Imagine that!”
To which B_D said:
That’s nonsense. Moody is a revivalist school and would not contenance anyone on their faculty with that belief. It would be contrary to their statement of faith.
So you NOW give these two links to "prove" your point??? Did you perhaps actually READ the links? Neither one said anything about Moody Bible NOR about a problem of a professor insisting on teaching only Paul's epistles. Did you think nobody would dare call your bluff? Back to your "research", I guess. Until then, we will all know that this was pure bluster and bluff and dishonest...you, know, what you have accused ALL Protestants of.
You wrote:
“Oh good grief. Yeah right. That’s why the rest of the chapter talking about the Last Supper.”
Did you even read the rest of the chapter? Apparently not.
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.
33 So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. 34 Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.
And when I come I will give further directions.
Clearly he is not just talking about the Last Supper. From verse 27 onward he is clearly talking about the Mass.
I realize that you have no arguments and, apparently, can’t read - as shown by the fact that you can’t even read 1 Corinthians 11:27-34. Whatever excuse you feel the need to use to attempt to save face is irrelevant to me. Go, run away. It’s not as if anyone actually expects you to do a very good job debating anyway.
Evidently! The more you learn about that cult the more appalling it gets.
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