All I can add is that if you have it, you'll know it...
I see that somebody has been boning up on their copy of:
By their fruits shall ye know them...
Posted on 08/18/2011 7:18:16 AM PDT by marshmallow
So why is the seal of confession inviolable? Why does the seal bind under such a grave obligation that the Church excommunicates any confessor who directly violates it? (See: The seal of confession: some basics)
There are two principal reasons why the priest must preserve the seal: the virtue of justice and the virtue of religion. The motive of justice is evident because the penitent, by the very fact of entering the confessional, or asking the priest to hear his confession (we’ll deal with “reconciliation rooms” another day) rightly expects that the priest will observe the seal. This is a contract entered into by the fact of the priest agreeing to hear a person’s confession. To mandate the violation of the seal is in effect to prohibit the celebration of the sacrament of Penance.
Much more grave than the obligation of justice towards the penitent is the obligation of religion due to the sacrament. The Catholic Encyclopaedia gives a brief explanation of the virtue of religion which essentially summarises the teaching of St Thomas Aquinas. (Summa Theologica 2a 2ae q.81) Religion is a moral virtue by which we give to God what is His due; it is, as St Thomas says, a part of justice. In the case of the sacrament of Penance, instituted by Christ, Fr Felix Cappello explains things well [my translation]:
By the very fact that Christ permitted, nay ordered, that all baptised sinners should use the sacrament and consequently make a secret confession, he granted an absolutely inviolable right, transcending the order of natural justice, to use this remedy. Therefore the knowledge which was their own before confession, after the communication made in confession, remains their own for every non-sacramental use, and that by a power altogether sacred, which no contrary human law can strike out, since every human law is of an inferior order: whence this right cannot be taken away or overridden by any means, or any pretext, or any motive.
The penitent confesses his sins to God through the priest. If the seal were to be broken under some circumstances, it would put people off the sacrament and thereby prevent them from receiving the grace that they need in order to repent and amend their lives. It would also, and far more importantly, obstruct the will of God for sinners to make use of the sacrament of Penance and thereby enjoy eternal life. The grace of the sacrament is absolutely necessary for anyone who commits a mortal sin. To mandate the violation of the seal is in effect to prohibit the practice of the Catholic faith. Some secular commentators have spoken of the seal of confession as being somehow a right or privilege of the priest. That is a preposterous misrepresentation: it is a sacred and inviolable duty that the priest must fulfil for the sake of the penitent and for the sake of God's will to redeem sinners.
A possibly misleading phrase in this context is where theologians say that the penitent is confessing his sins as if to God "ut Deo." (You can easily imagine secularists deriding the idea that the priest makes himself to be a god etc.) In truth, the penitent is confessing his sins before God. The priest acts as the minister of Christ in a sacred trust which he may not violate for any cause - precisely because he is not in fact God. By virtue of the penitent’s confession ut Deo, the priest absolves the penitent and, if mortal sin is involved, thereby readmits him to Holy Communion.
There will be more to follow on the sacrament of confession. As I mentioned in my previous post, this series is not intended as a guide for making a devout confession but rather as an introduction to some canonical and theological questions regarding the sacrament which have become important recently. (For a leaflet on how to make a good confession, see my parish website.)
I have been told that the threat in Ireland to introduce a law compelling priests to violate the seal of confession has been withdrawn, at least for the time being. Nevertheless, I will continue with these posts because I think that the Irish proposal will be picked up by other secularists and may pose a problem for us. Further posts will look at the proper place, time and vesture for hearing confessions, one or two more particular crimes in canon law, the question of jurisdiction and the much misused expression “Ecclesia supplet”, and, of course, what to do if the civil authority tries to compel a priest to break the seal.
An admirable characteristic of all those who claim Christianity without actually believing in it, preferring their own concoctions.
Seek YHvH in His WORD. I am Sorry; you seem to conflate
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
the Roman "church" with Christianity .
Sure...It kinda goes along with the rest of the baggage...God gave us a brain and the ability to use it...
But God tells us that intellect does no good when it comes to spiritual matters...
It seems as though the Apostle Paul was quite an intellectual...And here's what he had to say...
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
A fella with 3 college degrees is no more or no less qualified to know the spiritual things of God than a person with a tenth grade education...
And it’s not religion.
It’s a personal relationship with Christ.
Going through religious rituals and requirements does nothing.
Being in a right relationship with Christ and knowing that no matter what happens, in the end, I’m with Him, is everything.
Everyone dies at some point. Some of us stare it in the face daily. I consider that I’m not in any worse a situation than someone who has been diagnosed with cancer and knows their time is short, but is not sure of the *when*.
Coming to grips with the fact that I wasn’t sure I’d make it to the end of the year back in 2009, made me stare my own mortality in the face. It’s a hard thing to come to grips with. Life has a way of keeping us preoccupied and allowing us to push that to the back burner.
Our culture is not one where death is constantly being brought to the forefront. We’re used to thinking that it’s mostly for old people who have lived out a full life and that we have all kinds of time.
It really has a tendency to bring into focus what is really important in life. And God has revealed Himself to me in ways that I never expected. What a blessing, just to have Himself. Everything else fades in comparison.
Praise God.
And I humbly say thank you...
I believe it is more properly called a compound.
Knowing Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross was not conditional and knowing, right now, that have have a place reserved in heaven is not arrogance...
One of the ways that it is not arrogance is that we do not think we are superior to anyone...We are trying to get you to believe God so that you may have that assurance yourself...
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Of course they do...But our bible doesn't end with the Gospels...
Yes...Like the book of Isaiah that was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls which is basically a word for word manuscript of the KJV...
A fella with 3 college degrees is no more or no less qualified to know the spiritual things of God than a person with a tenth grade education...
Clearly. See my quote of St. Bonaventure's above.
However he may be less qualified to teach or even to defend, and he will almost certainly be less qualified to assess the teachings of others, in my point of view. For example if he doesn't know what we mean by "substance" or "real", then he's not in a position to argue against beliefs articulated with those terms.
Similarly if one thinks that 'eternity" means just infinite duration or something which is somehow less than temporality, there will be misunderstanding about whether the Mass is an believed to be an addition to the sacrifice of Calvary.
Maybe some sort of "spiritual judgment" can be made,but it can only be stated, not defended.
You'd think that the Church of England, whose head, James I of England and VI of Scotland, provided for the KJV would have made note of this.
And you'd think it would have been mentioned in the Episcopal Seminaries.
And Isaiah was careful to copy the AV and translate Hebrew from English!
Nobody really cares what you do or don't care about. But the question you gotta ask yourself, Sweet Pea, is whether the Nicene Creed set the fundations for the Canon of Scripture or did Scripture set the foundations of the Nicene Creed.
I believe in one God,
"I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me." -Exodus 20:2,3
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." -Mark 12:29-31
the Father Almighty,
"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." -Ephesians 4:6
"Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us?" -Malachi 2:10
"And God said unto him, I am God Almighty:" -Genesis 35:11
Maker of heaven and earth,
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -Genesis 1:1
"Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; -Isaiah 44:24
and of all things visible and invisible.
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him:" -Colossians 1:16
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" -Romans 1:20
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
"Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;" -2 Corinthians 1:3
"Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." -I Thessalonians 1:1
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof." -Romans 13:14
the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." -John 3:16
"And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." -Hebrews 1:6
"Then they that were in the ship came and worshiped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." -Matthew 14:33
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." -Revelation 1:8
God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." -John 1:1
"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." -I John 1:5
"Then spake Jesus again unto them saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." -John 8:12
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." -John 20:28
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." -I John 5:20
"I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my son, today I have begotten you." -Psalms 2:7
"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" -Hebrews 1:5
"He who has seen me has seen the Father." -John 14:9
being of one substance with the Father;
"I and my Father are one." -John 10:30
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." -Isaiah 44:6
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." -Revelation 1:8
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" -Philippians 2:6
"But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." -John 10:38
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." -Colossians 2:9
by whom all things were made.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. ...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. ...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -John 1:1-3,10,14
"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." -Ephesians 3:9
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." -I Corinthians 8:6
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." -Colossians 1:15-17
Who, for us all for our salvation, came down from heaven,
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," -I Thessalonians 5:9
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." -Acts 4:12
"And that from a child, thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus." -II Timothy 3:15
"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." -John 6:51
"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." -John 6:38
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man;
"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." -Matthew 1:18
"To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. ...And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." -Luke 1:27,35
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" -Philippians 2:6,7
"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;" -Romans 1:3
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." -Acts 2:36
"And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. ...Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified." -Matthew 27:2,26
"And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified." -Mark 15:15
He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
"From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day." -Matthew 16:21
"And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen shroud, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock; and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre." -Mark 15:46
"And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." -Luke 24:5-7
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received: how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures: And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures;" -I Corinthians 15:3-4
and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." -John 20:17
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." -I Timothy 3:16v " ...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.” -I Peter 3:21,22
"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight." -Acts 1:9
"So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." -Mark 16:19
and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
"And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." -Acts 1:10,11
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." -Revelation 1:7
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:" -John 5:22
"And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be judge of quick and dead." -Acts 10:42
"And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." -Luke 1:33
And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life;
"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." -John 14:17
"Now the Lord is that Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." -II Corinthians 3:17
"Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God." -Acts 5:3,4
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." -John 3:5
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" -Titus 3:5
who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" -John 15:26
"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" -Luke 11:13
"Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" -Matthew 28:19
"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." -II Peter 1:21
And I believe in one holy universal and apostolic Church.
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." -John 17:20-23
"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism; One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." -Ephesians 4:1-6
"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." -Colossians 1:18
"To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven," -Hebrews 12:23
"...they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." -Revelation 21:27
"...and with other my fellow laborers, whose names are in the book of life." -Philippians 4:3
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." -Matthew 18:20
"And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:" -Philemon 1:2
"Likewise greet the church that is in their house." -Romans 16:5
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." -I Timothy 3:15
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" -Ephesians 2:20
"And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." -Acts 2:42
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" -Matthew 28:18,19
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism," -Ephesians 4:5
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." -Galatians 3:27
"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." -Matthew 26:28
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." -Luke 24;47
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." -Acts 2:38
“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” -I Peter 3:21
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." -Romans 6:3,4
and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?" -1 Corinthians 15:12
"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." -1 Corinthians 15:21,22
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." -1 Corinthians 2:9
"For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be the glory forever. Amen." -Romans 11:36
This is a translation from the Great Scroll of Isaiah of the Dead Sea Scrolls, chapter 3:13-15:
18. (13) YHWH stands up to contend , He stands to judge the people. (14) YHWH goes into judgement with
19. the elders of his people and his princes for you have consumed the vineyard and the loot of the poor is in {&your&} houses.
20. (15) What is it to you that you beat my people and you crush the faces of the poor says the {&Lord&} YHWH
21. of Hosts. (PP)
This is from the AV, same vss.
13 The LORD standeth up12 to plead,2 and standeth6 to judge2 the people.
14 The LORD will enter4 into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up14 the vineyard; the spoil of the poor [is] in your houses.
15 What mean ye [that] ye beat17 my people to pieces, and grind4 the faces of the poor? saith7 the Lord GOD of hosts.
Not even close to being “word for word”.
Someone must care...I didn't bring up the nicene creed...
But really, I don't have to ask myself any questions about your creed...I am not interested in any man's creed...
Although probably not intended, you are the first anti-Catholic to admit that the Early Church Fathers who met at Nicea were Catholic....well done.
Now for the $64,000 question; which came first, the canon or the creed?
All I can add is that if you have it, you'll know it...
I see that somebody has been boning up on their copy of:
By their fruits shall ye know them...
Interesting. It is quite true that such as Thomas Hobbes despised the AV and there was considerable criticism using mostly the Vulgate as a truer source. It took some time for the KJV to be shoehorned into Protestant churches.
You're a lot light on your research
Better that than to be light in the
In John 8:10 where Peter is drawing his sword. In Acts 16:19 where Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace before the rulers.
Was it “up to” the fish being dragged in, or the sword? How about Paul and Silas? Was it “up to them”? Knowing what the words mean is rather “illuminating” I would say.
Ever caught a fish that got away? Acts 16: 40When they had come out of the prison, they went to Lydia’s house where they saw and encouraged the brothers, and then they left.
Knowing Scripture and life both is just as illuminating.
It was a government document that was created with a political agenda by a ruling monarch of a country which had just militarily taken over nearly all Church property and hijacked the theology of the believers. As with the German princes who did the heavy lifting in the Continental Reformation, the primary object was power and control, not peoples' souls.
but even it's translators recognized it had shortcomings that they or future scholars should correct as the noes from the translators say.
That said the idea that this translation “can be be traced back....” etc., etc., is ludicrous. And as for added words, few translations have as many spurious texts included as the AV.
You're just saying that because it's true.
I know many of the KJV only people think it fell from heaven and that Jesus spoke a quaint form of English but surely something has been learned from the many hundreds of manuscripts found since 1611!
Not by everyone, unfortunately.
More so for a humanist I would think. Other than that I am puzzled as to what a fish getting out of a net has to do with the word used meaning drag in scripture.
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