Posted on 07/17/2011 9:33:31 PM PDT by Cvengr
A. ETYMOLOGY.
As with all Bible Study, first return to fellowship with God through faith in Christ and confession of sin to Him by 1stJohn 1:9. Then, without ceasing in prayer continue to intake the Word and let God perform His work in us. God Bless.
G.3. Rom 4:4-5, the person who works for salvation receives nothing from God because the justice of God is not free from grace to give him anything. Instead their works are credited to them as debt. Cf. Rom 9:30-32.
I know we go back and forth with some on this forum concerning this very doctrine. My belief, based upon many years of fervent Bible study, is that we cannot add our works into the equation of grace - not at any point. So the question I ponder is if someone believes in Jesus Christ as God incarnate, Son of God, second person of the Trinity and Savior, but also believes that they are saved by grace PLUS their works, then are they really saved? I used to hear the line, "If you're not sure you're saved, you can be sure you're not.". This is based on someone not having an assurance of their salvation because they think they can somehow lose it if they sin or fail to follow a set of rules.
Now, I DO have the assurance I am saved and, that when I die, I am going to Heaven. I base this assurance on the promises of Almighty God spelled out in Holy Scripture. When I placed my faith in Jesus Christ as my savior, I was reborn into the family of God, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, justified, sanctified and found in Christ, not having my own righteousness, but the righteousness of God in Christ. What I find so heartbreaking is that there are some people who read what I just wrote and call me "self-righteous". They say I have committed the sin of "presumption". That is where I find the sticking point. I understand fully that I am saved by God's amazing grace and there is NOTHING that I can do to save myself - which is why Christ came to save us. But to others I am bragging or claiming I am perfect.. How can we get people to grasp that knowing I am saved is NOT presumptuous of me and my meriting, but is a complete surrender to God, resting upon his grace to save me as he said he would.
I have loved ones who really believe that they must be good or they won't go to Heaven. They say they believe in Jesus and that he died on the cross, but, somehow, it has not sunk in that they can trust in God to take them all the way to heaven based on that faith. Are they saved, or not? If they think they must earn or "cooperate" with the grace of God to have a chance at Heaven, can they be saved thinking that way? My thoughts are no, because they aren't really trusting in Christ. But will God's mercy and grace STILL save them anyway if they have been confused by a lifetime of false dogmas? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
Forgive my “butting in” but I have given this some thought as well. I think it boils down to the very nature of salvation. It’s not just “believing in Christ” (for even the demons do that) but repentance and regeneration (which of course the demons do not and cannot do). If that has occurred it will be obvious in the manifestation of the fruits of the Spirit. HOWEVER, if one simply believes in Christ like the demons believe — and is trusting in a system (man-made) of works, membership in a church, certain acts of piety, charity, or “sacramental acts” as defined by one’s denomination, then no — that doesn’t pass muster.
I think there are many who are saved but who torture themselves unnecessarily by denying the saving power of Christ, believing they must “add” to His sacrifice because they worship an insufficient Savior who just can’t get the job done. To me that is sad. Others may be trusting in a man-made system to earn their way to Heaven. These are the ones who are truly in danger of Hell because they are trusting in a man-created doctrine to get to Heaven.
As for those who believe you are being presumptious, it is not “presumption” to take God at His word. He expects no less of those who claim Him.
OK - you didn’t ask for my thoughts and I apologize, but there they are — for what they’re worth if anything.
Perhaps the best way to address the issue is by focusing on their thinking, the object of their thinking, and the meanings of the words used in Scripture.
A study of PISTIS/PISTEO used in various passages might help to glean the meaning used when we speak of faith and believing.
Lots of people say they believe in Jesus and then struggle to perform good works or to avoid immorality, satiating their soulish perspective of living the Christian life, but such a perspective is soulish, not spiritual.
When we say ‘believe in Me and Thou shalt be saved’, it is the same word used as in, ‘we are saved by faith, not works, lest any man should boast’. Faith and belief as used in Scripture are not two different meanings, but have their object in the same person of Christ.
The next element, which might help to emphasize, is the definition of sin. While most people associate violation of the Law with sin, and indeed, immorality is sinful, not all sin is immorality.
Sin is simply missing the mark or missing the target as Greek archers would use the term in target practice when they failed to strike their aimed target.
In our situation, God provides a target for each of us in His Plan. If we are not in the right place, at the right time, to perform the right thing in the right way, we have missed the mark He has planned for us from eternity past.
When we hit the mark, there may be rewards at the bema seat when Christ evaluates our performance in completing the race He has set before us.
Now in regards to salvation, as in eternal life with a regenerated human spirit, once God imputes that life into us, when we are justified, by the very same criterion as Christ was justified, it is an eternal gift, because Christ had all personal sins imputed to Him at the Cross. Sin is no longer the issue for salvation. Forgiveness is the issue. The Cross was all Judgment. Forgiveness occurs now, in split second, whenever an unbeliever faces God and confesses his past sin by a smidgeon more faith in Christ’s work on the Cross, than no faith whatsoever, thereby becoming a believer.
Once they have received that gift, then they have eternal life. This doesn’t mean their soul has been completely cleansed. Our souls, namely our mind and hearts, still are scarred from our Old Sin Nature and our many years of living in a worldly fashion, without the spirit, independent of Christ.
Likewise, we have bad habits which have scarred our memory and thinking processes, where we very easily slip back into thinking independently from faith in Christ. As soon as we slip out of fellowship with God, (again anything outside His Plan for us), then similar to an unbeliever, we must now use 1stJohn 1:9 to return to fellowship with Him.
Believers out of fellowship can be the most heinous and perform the most anti-Christian acts and thoughts possible, as well as make God a debtor by performing good works independent of faith in Him, resulting in their own accounts being placed in arrears.
An interesting aside, regards the Garden of Eden, where man was not to partake from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. All humans have the ability to now know good and evil, but too easily confuse evil with legal disobedience, because when we violate the law, we only sense or anticipate His fiery indignation in response. More importantly, we are to remain in fellowship with Him first, prior to any consideration or discerning of good and evil.
Believers are not kept out of heaven because they sinned, because all of us are sinners and Christ had all personal sin imputed to Him on the Cross, but we might lose crowns because we are not in the right place at the right time to perform His Will by His Plan in the right fashion through faith in Christ.
There do exist counterarguments regarding the consequences of sin, but rather than arguing them, it is more doctrinal simply to remain in faith in Christ, keep short accounts, then it really isn’t an issue....IMHO Thru faith in Him, so I believe it.
Thanks very much for your thoughts! My comments were not directed specifically at anyone in particular, so I’m glad you “butted” in! ;o)
I agree with you that believing we are saved is not presumption but trusting God to keep his word. When you speak about what “believing in Jesus Christ” means, of course I am not speaking of simply acknowledging he exists. The demons - and all angelic beings - believe in him, but they are simply acknowledging the truth, being honest about it since he DOES exist and they have seen him. The demons nor the Heavenly angels have the ability to trust in Christ to save them. He came for the “world” of humans, not angels.
But the issue is, what does it mean to “believe” in Christ? My thoughts are that it is repentance - changing the mind - and trusting in Jesus Christ as Savior rather than thinking we can be good enough. When we really do this at the heart level - meaning it is more than a head knowledge - we surrender to Jesus Christ to save us from our sins. Placing our faith in him to save us, trusting that he IS who he claims to be and accepting his sacrifice in our behalf. That is the point I am trying to clarify. Is someone who believes in Christ as Savior YET also believes - based on a lifetime of teachings - that they must do other things to deserve heaven, get saved? I have a sinking feeling that they aren’t because they aren’t really trusting in Christ as their Savior after all.
Thanks for the reply. I’m hitting the sack for today, so I’ll try to get back with y’all tomorrow. Have a good night!
Thanks for your reply. I have very much enjoyed your posts in past and knew you to be “solid” where contending with the faith. These are hard questions, no doubt. I wanted to clarify the phrase “believing in Christ” for myself and anyone who reads later who might not be clear on what I mean by that. (I knew you did not mean belief as the demons do, but had to clarify for the purpose of my example).
On the issue of those who are tempted to add something to Christ’s sacrifice, I am reminded of a conversation I had with a professor of mine who was a Huguenot. She once said that she “hoped” she would get to Heaven. I was stunned because while I knew this was a position that Catholics take I was unaware of any Protestants who did. I gave her citations from Scripture which assure us of salvation. She read them (as she told me later) and admitted that that IS what Scripture teaches (once saved, always saved). I know now, of course, that there are some Protestant denominations who believe that one can “fall from grace” and must be restored. I rather think they are basing that thinking on the parable of the sower — and confusing those who “once tasted but fall away” as those who are saved when in fact a contextual exegetical reading will confirm these were those who were never believers to begin with.
I think (and these are just my thoughts) that in the dark of night our frail human nature feels that surely one must “do something” to gain entrance into God’s good graces. It’s one of the oldest temptations we have. I had a conversation once with a girl who was crying in a pew by herself after church. I went to find out what was wrong. She said “I just feel I’m not good enough for God.” I said “You’re not. And neither am I. And that’s the point. If you were there would be no need for Christ. He’s doing what you cannot.” If one has trusted in Christ as one’s Savior, but then feels one must add something — isn’t that a bit like praying that the Lord will help with a problem or resolve it, only to take it back again? I think the Lord understands both temptations and tendencies. I don’t think it’s the same as those who are trusting in something other than Christ for their salvation — but those are just my thoughts and certainly I could be quite wrong. I can see why you (or any other believer) would question the salvation of those in the former situation (and would agree that the latter are not saved, of course).
Repentance and confession, precedes forgiveness.
We too easily confuse repentance with remorse and emotion, rather than turning back and facing God directly again from when we turned away from Him to look at anything else as the object of our thinking. There also is an element of volition in changing our mind, but changing our mind in METANOIA, is also understandable as changing the object of our thinking. Instead of anything but Christ and His work on the Cross, we simply return to Him, focusing on Him as the object of our thinking.
That is the first part of believing in Him.
Next we confess our sins in judging ourselves.
If we are thinking through faith in Him at this same time, then we are thinking and knowing by faith He has already had our sins imputed upon Him at the Cross.
When we think about ourselves first before Him, we fall into arrogance.
People frequently are challenged by three different but very arrogant thinking problems when they doubt their salvation:
1) They think they had performed some sin which is just too heinous to be forgiven.
2) They keep performing the same sin, so they must not have really repented from the sin.
3) At the time of their salvation, they were fine, but later performed something so heinous that wasn’t covered by the Cross when they were first saved.
In each of these arrogant situations, the believer fails to recognize Christ had ALL sins imputed upon Him at the Cross and ALL had been judged. God knows every sin we ever committed and will ever commit, when he gives any human a created Human Spirit, imputed to the believer justifying the believer.
The first step in such arrogance is, again, by 1st John 1:9, retuning to God in repentance, then confessing all known and unknown sins to Him, then letting Him handle the situation.
BFL8R and freepmail reminder.
I believe that their trust, although imperfect theologically, could still be soul saving. Consider the faith of a child ~ do they understand the difference between the doctrines of justification and sanctification?
What I find sad is the lack assurance that these people have. We all have doubts from time to time, and that is why we examine ourselves. The examination of my life shows me that I am a failure but I am in Christ and count on His righteousness which is more than weight-lifting. To be counted righteous in Christ, is joy filling.
When I stand before God, I will plead Christs perfect righteousness. There is no need for me to wonder if I have done enough. Thanks be to God that He gives me this assurance through the reading of scripture.
By grace I am an heir of heaven: why doubt this, O my trembling heart?
If what the Scriptures promise clearly is true and firm in every part,
This also must be truth divine: by grace a crown of life is mine.
Live Source please or did you write it?
The Early Church Fathers on Justification - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas. 2:24)
I ask these questions for a number of reasons. The Gospel has been perverted by many “religious” organizations from the simplicity that is in Christ. I was “born” into one in particular and give all the glory to God that he led me out from under its oppression. I sought the truth from God not knowing where it would lead and he showed me the truth of the Gospel right from Holy Scripture. I knew I could never go back to the false religion. I actually SAW and understood that there was a huge difference between what I had been taught and what God actually said. The Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the truth and I just KNEW.
My way of life also changed, though not all at once, of course. I began to appreciate the grace of God and the assurance I had of his love and that he was always drawing me back to him. He always forgave me when I fell and I never felt he abandoned me, I also never abandoned him. As I sit here in my semi-senior years (ha ha) I look back on his hand guiding my life and there is not one thing that I can think of that he did not use to mold me into who I am today. Not one tear was wasted.
So, my heart tells me that others must also go through the same kind of emotions and God is no respecter of persons - he loves us equally - he works in our collective hearts to assure us of his love and we must learn to trust in him completely.
I just don't understand how someone can say they believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior, claim to believe the Gospel, but still deny the sufficiency that is in Christ. He saves us completely and not even one microscopic part is due to our merit or deeds. I understand that there has been deception from the enemy, but I hope that God “gets through” to the hearts of those who genuinely seek him.
I know I have to trust that God loves people more than I ever could, and that he desires that they know the truth so that they can be with him for eternity. It is not my job to judge another’s heart since only God can truly see it. But I do grieve for those who live their lives in constant fear of not pleasing God. To only be able to say, “I hope I will go to heaven when I die.”, but to not have the calm assurance that what he has begun in us he IS able to bring to completion, is a terrible way to live.
Thank you for your comments.
We love to "sugar coat" things because we don't want to offend. However, I think it's pretty clear the answer is NO!
Gal. 1:6-7 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, (7)which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law, you have fallen from grace.
Roms. 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.
I think it is as simple as just "believing in Christ". Repentance and regeneration follow real faith. The fallen angels "know" who Jesus Christ is, but they don't believe in Him unconditionally.
I think there are many who are saved but who torture themselves unnecessarily by denying the saving power of Christ, believing they must add to His sacrifice because they worship an insufficient Savior who just cant get the job done.
Then they don't believe in Him unconditionally. Therefore they have added to The Gospel and in turn believe a different gospel.
Thank you for the reply. I agree that true repentance is acknowledging our sinful condition in light of the perfection and holiness of Almighty God. Sin is “missing the mark” of God’s holiness and perfection and, I agree, it is not just immoral acts but everything we do when compared to what God is. When we first put our trust in Jesus Christ as our Savior, we acknowledge we are sinners and that we cannot save ourselves. We fall upon the throne of God’s mercy and grace and he DOES forgive and makes us righteous in his sight.
I know that there are many people out there who really don’t understand that part. They think “believing” in Christ is a general thing and they trust in their Church to bring them to salvation through acts and works or deeds prescribed by their Church. This is an empty faith in many cases. Sure there are those within that grasp the truth of the Gospel and determine to stay within their faith community to live out their faith in that environment. I just think they are in a minority. So many do not fully understand the promises of God and they place more faith in their own goodness than in Christ’s righteousness to save them.
Some even say that we believe in a “cheap grace” or they call it “easy-believism”, as though we preach a shallow faith that says, “Yeah, I believe in Jesus, but I will still live the way I want.”. I know this is NOT what is meant when we say we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone. It is a changed life that PROVES the faith was genuine but it is not those good deeds and refraining from sinning that saves us, but the result of a heart that seeks after God and that has been changed from the inside.
I feel so deeply sorry for people that are unable to understand this simple truth. They have been brainwashed, almost, to reject something that “sounds” to good to be true. But we know from God himself that that IS the good news of the Gospel - that Christ came to save sinners and to transform us into children of God so that we can KNOW we have eternal life.
Thanks for this article and your comments.
We don't need degrees in theology to have unconditional faith, children are a great example. Children have blind faith. They just believe. They do not seek to make God a debtor who is obligated to save them because of their good deeds, or the rituals they performed. They just believe.
The person who adds to their faith, even with the best of intentions, is following a different gospel.
The good news of the Gospel is that we can never be good enough to go to heaven and that is why Jesus came to earth to take our place and die for our sins. He paid the penalty we deserved for sinning and he offers us his righteousness in the place of our unrighteousness. That is what is meant by being justified in Christ. Just-as-if-I’d never sinned. He cleanses us as white as snow. I agree with you that when we stand before God at our judgment we are acquitted of all charges because we are found IN Christ, robed in HIS righteousness. Praise God!!!
I hope so much that my loved ones who do not understand this truth will be covered by the grace of God, that he deals with them as children who, though earnest in their worship of him, have been deceived by those they have been convinced to trust.
Thanks for your input.
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