Posted on 07/08/2011 1:44:03 PM PDT by Colofornian
...David Hyrum Smith...youngest son of...LDS prophet, Joseph Smith...returned to a mission to Utah...Reorganized church prophet, Joseph Smith III, who the letter was addressed to, must have regretted extending the call, writes Valerie Tippetts Avery, author of “From Mission to Madness: Last Son of the Mormon Prophet...” To young David...the mission...served to convince himself...that he had spent years angrily refuting — that his father...preached and practiced polygamy.
...David...Smith took his...skepticism...further, arguing against...dogma that man can only seek important further knowledge from a selected prophet. This doubt struck at a key doctrine of both churches. He wrote: “If faith unto salvation was an eternal principle and true, it could be discovered and demonstrated so as to be of general benefit as the law of gravitation or the rules of mathematics. But as it comes to us it makes us subservient to our falable (sic) fellow Man for eternal life, a most absurd proposition. But you again might speak God has revealed himself. But here again is an absurdity our fellow man brings us a revelation, and we are only guided by our faith in him. We do not know he has had this revelation and eternal salvation depends upon our faith in our fellow man and his revelation. Unjust and absurd.”
...David Smith...pointed out the inconsistency of ascribing belief based on one man’s claim of divine prophecy. For every Joseph Smith, he told his brother, there were Brigham Young, “Spiritualists” and Strangites” (an offshoot of Mormonism).
Young Smith’s ideas could be dismissed as heresy...by rigid believers...Any follower of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints…should acknowledge... inconsistencies demanded…which are:
• ...belief is required without presentable evidence...
• ...for every claim of a Joseph Smith or a Thomas Monson, there are thousands of similar claims from prophets with hundreds of millions of adherents...
(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.standard.net ...
Nibley was a hack who made up a lot of his ‘sources’ or took sources out of context.
I spent a year trying to verify his sources (and yes I am fluent in Biblical Greek, Hebrew, and Latin as well as Egyptian Hieroglyphs) and found less than 3% to be accurate.
Nibley’s poor scholarship did a lot to get me out of Mormonism.
Hugh, mormonic scholar, would probably be too busy answering for sexually abusing his daughter to debate.
His daughter, martha beck, wrote the best selling book, Leaving the Saints: How I Lost the Mormons and Found My Faith” in which Beck alleges sexual abuse by her father... I hope she’s found peace in Christ.
Whiskey, that’s a whole ‘nuther topic.
JESUS: Hey Smith! Remember that boast you made about doing more than even I had done to hold the 'church' together?
JOSEPH SMITH: Where am I?
JESUS: Don't you remember? A few seconds ago you were in that jail.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah; but where am I NOW?
JESUS: Don't you remember? Does bang - bang ring a bell?
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah - that crummy gun I had was about USELESS!
JESUS: I hope you left instructions on how to hold your church together.
JOSEPH SMITH: Dang! I knew there was SOMETHING I was forgetting!
JESUS: Looks like there's a power struggle going on down there.
JOSEPH SMITH: Yeah; there was always SOMEone who wanted the power that I held - especially over the LADIES - wink wink.
JESUS: No need to worry about that now; remember what my friend Matthew wrote down?
JOSEPH SMITH: This? “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)
JESUS: That's it.
JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.
JESUS: Nah - it was right.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh well; it was fun while it lasted. My buds will still get it on with the girls.
JESUS: Uh; I'm sorry; in just a few more years; your followers will cavein to the United States government and abandon the 'Eternal Covenant' that you came up with.
JOSEPH SMITH: ME!? YOU are the one that told me to do that!
JESUS: Sorry; but you must have mistranslated what I told you. What part of Do NOT commit ADULTERY did you not understand?
JOSEPH SMITH: mumble....
JESUS: What did you say?
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, nothing.
JESUS: Well; it was interesting talking to you; but now I must get back to perparing a place for those who believe in Me.
JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, yeah; the Celestial Kingdom.
JESUS: No...
JOSEPH SMITH: The Telestial one?
JESUS: Nope.
JOSEPH SMITH: SUREly not the TERRESTRIAL one!!
JESUS: Nope. Didn't you read that the mind of man had NOT conceived of it? Paul wrote it down in 1 Corinthians 2:9.
JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.
JESUS: No; it wasn't.
JOSEPH SMITH: You SURE?
JESUS: Yes. Now I must be going: what did you say your name was again?
JOSEPH SMITH: Joseph Smith.
JESUS: Hmmmm. According to my Heavenly FAITHbook, you didn't sign in as one of my friends - sorry, I never knew you.
JOSEPH SMITH: But....
And if they spew FACTS directly from MORMON presses; just pretend they don't exist.
No, No, NO!!!
He would BATHE in it!
Don't you know the SCRIPTURE?
| The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy. |
ping — on David Hyrum Smith & Joseph Smith III.
bttt
Your statement, “No evidence required that Smith was a “prophet.”” Oh so wrong! 1Thess 5:21 “Prove all thing: hold fast that which is good.” For our own salvations protection we need to find the evidence. Only Joseph Jr. and Heavenly Father know the truth of his vision. There were no “eye” witnesses but there is plenty of hand written witness contained in the journals that were left behind and they are available for those who want to “Prove all things”. Scripture,Gods written letter to us by his scribes also tells us that there were true prophets of God the Eternal Father and there were false prophets and they will be proven by GOD Himselfin His own time. He has a warning to all false prophets and their followers in Jeremiah 23. Verse 39 reads. “Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: 40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.”
Those who follow a false prophet are following another god not the great “I AM”. That person will not only loose his salvation but those he had led astray, be they family, friend or neighbor.
Ezekiel 13:8,9 “Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you. And my hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that prophecy lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writings of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the LORD GOD.”
According to Scripture, only Heavenly Father can appoint a prophet, not man. Let’s go on the assumption that Joseph Smith Jr. was a true prophet of God. (But we do not know for certain, only God knows. We go on faith that Joseph has told the truth about his vision of Heavenly Father.) But the same can not be said of Joseph III. He was appointed prophet of the RLDS Church by mortal men and not by God. You can not attain or vote a person into the possession of Gods prophet. Neither by succession, only by a vision from The Most High. Were all LDS prophets, including FLDS, and RLDS past and present, true prophets?
Did Brigham Young receive a vision from Heavenly Father appointing him as a latter day prophet because he could not “inherit” it. He could not receive it through succession. I have read Journal of Discourses, the volumes of the History of the Church, and some biographies, to list only some of the literature available to me. I have yet to read where any prophet after Joseph Smith Jr. received a vision from Heavenly Father as Joseph had.
In 1860, Emma and Joseph’s eldest son, Joseph Smith III, after four years of refusal, accepted the invitation to serve as prophet and first president of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It was offered by a group of men who formerly had been members of the Church, many of whom had left to follow James J. Strang for a time. As a group they chose not to go west with the body of the Church. Emma, who had heretofore rejected connection with any of the splinter Mormon groups, was admitted into membership in 1860. In his acceptance speech, Joseph III firmly rejected polygamy as a practice of the new church, and Emma denied that her husband had participated in the practice.
The “invitation” he accepted proves he was a prophet in name only appointed by man. Not appointed by God.
God will set thing right when He chooses to or not interfere when it serves His purpose. Did He not let Satan test Job with all manner of afflections and Abraham with Isaac. To test their love for Him.
Numbers 12:1-6 And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses (Gods most loved Prophet), saying, hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? Hath He not spoken by us? (God chooses His prophets in two or more at a time Jeremiah 28. Jeremiah and Hananiah were but true prophets of God but Hananiah spoke a false prophecy and God spoke to Jeremiah about the the words spoken and through Jeremiah He sent a warning of death to Hananiah for his false prophecy and he died that same year. two or more prophets were appointed as witness for the other.) And the LORD heard it. And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron and unto Miriam, “Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation (where the people assembled to worship God) And they three came out. And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth. And He said, “Now here My words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make Myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, . . . With him I will speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold . . .”
I wonder why on only two of the 21, it was written as in the first person “I, the Lord” and the rest was written in the second person? It seems to me that the prophet was referring to himself as “I, the Lord”.
Taken out of context? Methinks so.
Why would I want to be a Born Again evangelical? I am happy with my current faith. Whatever floats yer boat.
Trapped as you state is also a mindset that people who hold your viewpoints view practicing Mormons as. Blind faith lemmings who follow a group of geriatric apostles like sheep. Such is the sad view of closed minded people. Failure to see that I am LDS because I choose to be and not because I feel led about by false prophets. I am more free than many of my other faith or jack Mormon counterparts.
Elsie whatever floats your boat. See you are caught up in what I believe is cyclical antimormonism. You are so obsessed with the faith, you can’t even get the incorrect garbage about Mormons right, let alone the truth. I say this with all due respect, but as Mark Levin says get the facts and call back later.
Well I am impressed by your self described “resume.” Nibley never did claim to get it all right, but he was a scholar in more than just Mormonism. He studied all kinds of stuff. I am also a person proficient in Spanish, the US Constitution, Sociology, US Policy, and Administration. Are you impressed with my “resume?” Probably not. Personally I am glad to see those who leave the LDS faith who would otherwise not be happy in the religion.
So reaganut glad you are out of the faith. I hope you find your relationship with God your way and I will find mine my way. America is a great place to do that as long as we protect it.
Um I don’t know what you’re sources, but that made no sense whatsoever. LDS doctrine since its inception has always maintained that Joseph Smith claimed he saw The Father and The Son Jesus Christ. Though various versions of the account have been published, truthful accounts from Smith or others are consistent, while others claiming access to the information are nothing but hacks or misinformed people about Smith’s vision that started the Mormon movement.
You have proof of this clap trap by his daughter than her own version of the story? Have you conveniently left out the fact Nibley’s daughter also had some serious mental issues? Or is this just an attempt to malign a dead man with whom you have so much disagreement?
Um I don’t know what you’re sources, but that made no sense whatsoever. [zippythepinhead]
What did not "make sense?"
I made the following claims:
Claim #1: His "vision" versions came after the Book of Mormon was published in 1830.
Explanation: Nothing to not "make sense" there: Even though Smith claimed in various versions that this happened to him when he was either 14 or 16 years of age (between 1820-1822), do we see any published or even later-discovered handwritten notes from him in or from the 1820s? (Nope) Smith wrote his first "first vision" version in June 1830 -- and it wasn't published til 1833.
Claim #2: "his (Smith's) accounts changed so much"...for example...
* Oliver Cowdery's 1835 published version says the "first vision" took place in Smith's bedroom;
* the very first two versions written -- one by Smith in 1830 and another by his mother in 1831 -- don't even mention a location...you'd think that would be of import, right?
* Smith's 1832 version says it occurred "in the wilderness";
* one of his 1835 and his 1839 versions don't mention a location...
* Two Lds "apostles" published early 1840s versions...they mention a "grove" -- as does another of Smith's 1835 versions.
And then how old was Smith? Those published between Nov. 1835 and 1842 say Smith was 14. But his own handwritten 1832 version and Oliver Cowdery's Feb. 1835 version say Smith was 16. The versions written in 1830 and 1831 don't mention an age. Why couldn't Smith get that down pat?
Also, Smith relayed no content to what he was told in his 1830 version or his 11/14/1835 version.
Claim #3: ...many of the Lds leaders reference only angels appearing to Joseph Smith.
There's so many quotes on this one I will do a special follow-up post on this one.
Claim #4: Not God. Not Jesus Christ. Even the official Mormon "scripturized" account in the Pearl of Great Price doesn't mention God or Jesus name as the "personages" that appeared to him."
Your (Zippy's) response on this: LDS doctrine since its inception has always maintained that Joseph Smith claimed he saw The Father and The Son Jesus Christ. Though various versions of the account have been published...
My Qs to you, Zippy:
Question A: Does the official version in the Pearl of Great Price (Joseph Smith History) mention "God" or "Heavenly Father" or "Jesus Christ" appearing to Smith?
Answer: No. This version was written in 1839 and published in 1842. It mentions only two unnamed "personages" -- one who was a son of the other.
Question B: What about the other early 1840 published pieces -- those published by Lds "apostles" Orson Pratt and Orson Hyde. Did these accounts identify who supposedly appeared to Joseph Smith?
Answer: No. Unidentified.
Question C: Well, what about the earliest accounts -- Smith's 1830 version published in 1833 and his mother's account written in 1831 and eventually published in 1906. Did either of these two accounts mention anybody by name or by divinity as having appeared to Joseph Smith?
Answer: No.
Question D: Did Oliver Cowdery's version published in Feb. 1835 in the Messenger & Advocate -- did it mentioned who appeared to Smith?
Answer: Yup. "a messenger sent by...the Lord"
Question E: Well, surely the two 1835 versions of Smith written just 5 days apart (Nov. 9, Nov. 14) mentioned God and Jesus, right?
Answer: Nope! Smith says in the Nov. 14, 1835 version that it was a "visitation of angels." In the Nov. 9 version, they were unidentified personages.
That leaves ONLY the 1832 handwritten Smith note. Question F: In the 1832 version, does Smith use the words, God, Father or Heavenly Father, or Jesus?
Answer: No! (He mentions "the Lord")
In order that you may have clarity that you and ALL Mormons have believed a spiritual fraud perpetrated upon you -- worse than the $1 1/2 billion affinity fraud perpetrated in recent years upon members of the Lds church -- I have provided in my previous post and this one the clarity you claim was missed on a previous post of mine.
My Claim #3: ...many of the Lds leaders reference only angels appearing to Joseph Smith.
Let's review that, shall we, so that this "makes sense" to you:
First of all:
* Joseph Smith himself in his Nov. 14, 1835 vision version claimed that it was a "visitation of angels" which appeared to him.
* Cowdery's Feb. 1835 version published in the Messenger & Advocate claimed the one who appeared to him was "a messenger sent by the commandment of the Lord"
Second of all, who were the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th "prophets" of the Lds church, Zippy?
Answer: Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff.
Here, you say my claim "made no sense whatsoever" -- and you'd think that John Taylor, who was with Smith when he died...and Brigham Young...and Woodruff -- would have the story down pat as to knowing who Smith claimed appeared to him, right?
Wrong!
Who did Brigham say appeared to Joseph (& we're not talking about ensuing "visitations" by angels)...we're talking about specifics in the "official" version that claimed to happen then!
Brigham Young's account of the First Vision:
Source: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 171, 1855:
The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven...But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong;..."
Lds 3rd "prophet" John Taylor, who was with Smith when he died:
Two sources, first Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 127, 1863...then Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20, p. 167, 1879:
1863: How did this state of things called Mormonism originate? We read that an angel came down and revealed himself to Joseph Smith and manifested unto him in vision the true position of the world in a religious point of view. He was surrounded with light and glory while the heavenly messenger communicated these things unto him...
Now, lest you think Taylor was referencing some "follow-up" visitation, keep reading the '79 version:
...when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right. What, none of them? No. We will not stop to argue that question; the angel merely told him to join none of them thatt none of them were right. (Taylor)
Lds 4th "prophet" Wilford Woodruff:
Source: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 324, 1869:
How did it commence? It commenced by an angel of God flying through the midst of heaven and visiting a young man named Joseph Smith, in the year 1827. That was the time of a great awakening among the sectarians of the day...He went into his secret chamber and asked the Lord what he must do to be saved. The Lord heard his prayer and sent His angel to him, who informed him that all the sects were wrong, and that the God of heaven was about to establish his work upon the earth."
Woodruff says this "first vision" happened in 1827--when Joseph Smith was 21 yrs + old!!!
Now lest you think that Woodruff just got things mixed up in his mind in 1869 on a single occasion, note that Woodruff had been saying similar things going back to at least 1855: How did it come? By the minsitering of an holy angel from God, out of heaven, who held converse with man, and revealed unto him the darkness that enveloped the world...The angel taught Joseph Smith those principles which are necessary for the salvation of the world...He told him the Gospel was not among men, and there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world...
Source: Journal of Discourses, vol.2 , p. 196, 1855.
Now Zippy...Exie...IF God or Jesus Christ had appeared to Joseph Smith, don't you think the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th "prophets" of the Lds church would have been "clued" in?
The fact is...the "official" account -- tho published in a Chicago newspaper -- was kept tucked away among Mormon leadership and wasn't made the "official" account until a generation later!
Want further proof?
Besides those "prophets," what about other key "apostles" like Orson Hyde and George A. Smith? They would surely have known in the 1850s and 1860s, right?
Lds "apostle" Hyde:
Source: Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 335, 1854:
Some one may say, 'If this work of the last days be true, why did not the Saviour come himself to communicate this intelligence to the world?' Because in the angels was committed the power of reaping the earth, and it was committed to none else. [Keep in mind that Hyde was given the important task of putting together an 1841 document -- a version of the vision -- which was translated into German to be published in 1842! IOW, he wasn't some "fringe" Lds leader...and this statement above is 12 years AFTER he published the 1842 German version of the vision!]
And what about Lds "apostle" George A. Smith...a member of the First Presidency and Joseph Smith's cousin? Surely Smith's own cousin and one of the top three hierarchical Mormons should know his "first vision" stuff, right?
Joseph Smith...went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and the Lord answered his prayer, and revealed to Joseph, by the ministration of angels, the true condition of the religious world. When the holy angel appeared, Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong... (Lds "apostle" and First President George A. Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 334, 1863)
You see, Zippy: You've been handed a carefully crafted "version" of the vision that came into widespread fruition in the 1870s...a vision ignored by the Lds leaders in the 1830s, 1840s, 1850s, 1860s, & even into the 1870s...judging John Taylor's 1879 remarks! Joseph told them all an angel appeared to him and mentioned the things now found in the "official version." That's it! His version of "the Lord" appearing to him written in 1832 -- handwritten -- went unpublished! His 1833 published version of the account he wrote in 1830 doesn't mention the Father or Son! Cowdery's 1835 published version mentions "a messenger."
You've all been defrauded! You've become victims of a fraud! I will pray for each of you that your soul may turn away and be victimized no more!
The Lord Jesus loves each of you, and wants the truth once and for all bestowed to you!
Sorry zippy, but if you are going to malign his daughter you must prove she is not telling the truth. If it’s “clap trap”, PROVE IT!
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